Hi all, A good example of the serie N°821E / 250HK (E&G) by Petromax Graetz Altena Wesp Germany in early 50s. This is my first Pétromax in 250HK found in 2015 in Germany. I thought the original glass was no longer on the lamp the markings are no longer visible. With an LED lamp they appear So this lamp has kept the original parts is good surprise for me at the time. With the engraving by hand on the bottom i think that this one dates from May 1953 (we have no proof for that). The intérior chimney carries the marking "patent applied for". The patent of this one is the:PETROMAX DATIERUNG Interesting information for Auer P40 glass on this lamp can be found here at Feuerhand history in chapter 3:http://www.bunk-online.de/DB_FeuerhandSturmlaternenLightInternational2000_db.pdf After cleaning this lamp works perfectly i use it regulary Acknowledgemants for the online sources and web sites: Wim van der Velden. Bunk online. Thank for sharing. Regards, Titoo
Hi Phil, I also own this one:Pétromax N°:821/250 cp. You can compare with pictures. For me it seems earlier in the production. Berlin or Altena all is not clear yet. Let's be patient. They work perfectly both. Regards, Titoo
@Titoo A very fine 821E in good condition The lateral mixing tube attachement there was, according to my observation, only 1952/53. I also have a 821E.It is from decembre 1953.But she already has the then brand new mixing tube attachement as we know it today.She also has a P40 Auer glass. The E&G is no longer imprinted on my 821E (12/1953) Regards,Reinhard
Hi Reinhard, We are on the same thought. Which raises me question: This is because the generator does not have the reinforcement bar. The Petromax patent DE873381 for this reinforcing bar gives the date: 23/05/51 - 05/03/53. My Petromax N°821 - N°821E - N°827 has a generator without the reinforcement. This avoids generator to deform under the powerful heat of the mantle. During the restoration of these three lamps i straightened the generators with a hand press for the proper functioning of needle rod. I own two old NOS generators for Petromax N°821/827 they do not have a reinforcement bar. Here os a picture. Regards, Titoo.
Hello @Titoo I have a couple of Petromax 821 that look like both your current post and the earlier 250cp. All have the E within the G logo on the fount. Also, the vaporisers for both my 821s are the earlier Preston loops without the central rib. Besides that, both mine have the earlier inner hood with the mixing tube with two flat nuts holding it. As mentioned by @Reinhard , the burner assembly of your current unit here has the newer attachment style according to the German patent by Fritz Gtaetz.(1951-54, perhaps even released as late as 1956). Therefore, it somewhat contradicts to a lantern which was stamped with an earlier E & G logo. I'm not too sure when if the E would have been omitted by the time the newer inner hood/mixing tube attachment design came into use.
Patents can be a handy guide to dating parts. Here is my Petromax Patent list from the PLC. ::Neil:: 1914 – 8 Apr. GB191411074; Pressure table lamp tops one with upright mantle and one with inverted mantle. 1919 – 5 Aug 340546; Lever valve for do nut generator 1919 – 24 Dec 340547; Don’t know. Pressure release maybe. Shows a table lamp fount with a gizmo inside it. 1920 – 9 Jan 350372; Do Nut Lamp. Cleaning needle for generator 1921 – 9 Apr 365530; Table lamp. Straight generator. Model 833 type 1923 –16 Jan 385043; Do nut. Valve and pre heater arrangement 1923 – 20 Mar 398970; Valve and tip cleaner – spring loaded for do nut lamp burner 1923 – 29 Nov 409340; Table lamp 1925 –15 Mar 448864; Kerosene heater 1925 – 22 Oct 458277; Heater 1926 – 27 Aug 461698; 4 company joint lantern patent 1927 – 29 Nov 513988; 4 company joint lantern patent. This shows a generator almost certainly never made with two curved “Cow Horn” projections. It does however show the form of the lantern which in production was fitted with a Preston type generator. 1931 – 16 May 556033; Two controls – valve and pricker. Most likely for a gasoline burner. 1932 – 14 Apr 582112; Do nut burner-generator 1932 – 7 Nov 585329; Pressure gauge filler cap for lantern 1933 – 24 Mar 625565; Do Nut Preston type ring burner 1934 – 17 Nov 623997; Pre heater torch. Poss not made as shown but a version of it was as seen on Aladdin P’Max Etc 1935 – 12 Feb 630261; Pre heater torch. Poss not made as shown 1934 – 20 Sep 634322; Air Volume control at top of generator. Poss not made 1935 – 9 May 636752; Pre heater torch with a spring loaded metal rocker valve. Poss not made. 1935 – 10 Sep 645164; Pre heater torch valve. Screw in, lozenge shaped control. This is the one we see up to 1939 1935 – 3 Aug 648446; Pre heater torch valve. Rotating type. A bit like Primus and Optimus types. Poss not made 1935 – 13 Sep 659127; As Pat 645164 but applied to a do nut lamp 1937 – 24 Mar 665785;. Generator. No Preston ring and Horizontal ribs. Also for Austria. Poss used on Ditmar/Phoebus. 1937 – 19 Oct 689629; Lantern with extra fount on filler and pre heater. Probably not made 1938 – 9 Jun 678687; Additional and modification to 645164. Pre heater torch and valve. Screw control 1938 – 28 Jan 671359; Pricker operating lever and cam 1938 – 6 Aug 687309; Pre heater torch with rotating head. Poss not made. 1939 – 27 Jan 691167;Combined pump and fuel check valves. Poss never made 1939 – 5 Sep 700213; Pre heat torch rocker lever without heel. 1939 – 27 Jan 704013; Additional to 691167. Shows detail of Preston type super heater ring 1941 – 9 Feb 746763: Spring Loaded check valve in valve casting. Also shows Rocker valve lever now with heel. 1941 – 27 Nov 746629; Generator. With carrier for pricker rod/needle. No Preston ring so presumably for gasoline 1942 – 29 Nov 751862; Joint with Auergesellschaft. Mantles no images All patents before this are Graetz AG Berlin and after this are Graetz KG Altena 1950 – 20 Sep 867834; Re patent of zinc alloy type pre heater rocker valve. Lots of different methods. Poss never used. 1950 – 19 Oct 858774; Pressure gauge filler cap. 1951 – 23 May 873381; Reinforcing rib on generator 1952 – 5 Oct 925461; Air vents in support collar and centre fixing screw and offset fuel feed 1952 – 5 Apr 929721; J Tube holder screw through air gap shield and mixture paddle in mixing tube. 1952 – 24 Dec 947151; J tube lock screw over bridge. 1954 – 25 Feb 942141; Table lamp model 816. 1954 – 14 Apr 951204; Parallel rocker on Andersen type torch valve. 1954 – 23 Nov 1003158; Heat deflector for generator 1954 – 6 Dec 1028506; Pressure release built into filler cap 1954 – 6 Dec 1032194; Flat steel frame supports Poss not made 1954 – 6 Dec 1032197; Twin spring rocker arm for Andersen type pre heater valve. Poss not made 1956 – 3 Aug 1023431; Cooling ribs on support collar 1957 – 16 Apr 1091956; Combined needle valve shut off and pricker control 1957 – 5 Dec 1143315; Heater possibly not made 1960 – 14 Dec 1256175; Base plate heat deflector 1964 – 22 Oct 1228575. Internal sprung metal Rocker for Andersen type torch valve.
No idea, Wim but... (my emphases) If Neil says it's his list then that's good enough for me. I would imagine the patents themselves are to be found on the patent website(s): if two people working independently consult the same website(s) then they'll come up with the same list...
That must be a lot of work, Neil. I seldom find any Petromax around here that are 100% complete with their original parts. They are usually missing something, i.e.: pricker wheels, globe, vaporisers, fuel caps, pump parts, etc. Either that or they come with replacement parts of another maker.
Then you could save you a lot of time. The lamp patents on my website where collected biy Anton Kaim. At a point I made them all work with espacenet but they had to change the site every now and then. The dating Petromax page is also based on the patents.
@Wim and @Mackburner The Petromax patents with date are already a great help to date. But watch out ! Some patents were also introduced at different times. For example: 1956-Aug. No 1023431,cooling ribs on support collar. The first support collars with cooling ribs do not appear in my collection until 1958. In fact ,the support collars of about decembre 1956,1957 and maybe even 1958 were smooth. So no cooling ribs. Regards Reinhard
The point about dating from patents is that no manufacturer would market a new product BEFORE a patent was applied for. That does not mean that all production from after the first patent date has to comply with that patent so all dating has to be from examining examples of the product as well as consulting the patent dates. ::Neil::
I agree that the exact dating of the Petromax lanterns is neither that easy nor straight forward. There had been quite a lot variations since their introduction till the sixties. At least for those originals from Germany. There are those units with earlier design features that were still made well after the later patents' release. Well, maybe from a newly setup factory that might not be fully under Graetz control? And of course, also the place and country of origin could be debated at times. Germany or Portugal or Argentina...then perhaps later, China.
