HI, Just picked up my first Kerosine Pressure Lantern. Butterfly 828 / 350cp. "Slightly Used" was the description. But, no sign of any lighting, everything clean. There was some shipping damage. I dissassembled most of the lantern, taking pictures. But, I forgot to take a picture of the red knob arrow. The knob had an oval hole to match the shaft going to the little cam / lever for raising and lowering the rod that moves the needle (top) and valve (bottom in the tank). I understand how the rod goes up and down with the little cam on the end of the shaft. But, is the cam UP with the knob arrow UP? That would mean valve open and needle pushed into the vaporizer jet. Or is it the opposite? Arrow UP means rod down (valve closed at bottom and wire pulled out of the jet in the vaporizer)? I was able to straighten out the shroud, the shroud plate and screw, and the glass rods without breaaking anything. So, I just need this little bit of info. I know I can just give it a shot and change the red knob 180 degrees, but I'd like to know. I guess another way to look at it is, during startup while pre-heating, I guess you DONT want fuel going into the vaporizer tube, which would mean the tank valve at the tube bottom is CLOSED with the red knob arrow UP. The startup youtube video always seem to start with the arrow up during preheat. Thanks in advance, Stu Los Alamos, NM
Now that I think about it after reading my post, the rod has to be DOWN with the red knob arrow UP, since the tank needs to be completely isolated during pumping. I may go with that, but other tips appreciated. I've operated coleman gasoline lanterns and stoves for decades. And, I'm on this site with my collection carbide lanterns (my grandpa was a coal miner in Pennsylvania in the 20's - 30's).
Knob arrow/pointer down = eccentric/cam tip down = rod and needle at down position = fuel released = lantern in operation.
Thanks, guys for the info. I finished reassembling the lantern. The pump just wouldn't work well. I installed the "spare" leather piston with ample petrolatum. My tank cap/pressure gauge wouldn't register. I pulled it, disassembled it, and took a chance, since it looked to be dead. After carefully pulling the cover, plastic lens, and the gauge card (with the bar readings), I soaked the cap in acetone for about 30 minutes. there are no plastic parts in the cap or the bourdon tube/linkage to the needle. I dryed it out with some low compressed air. Then, I put it in my small jewelers Ultrasonic cleaner. Lots of black goo came out, probably from the old decayed rubber sealing gasket. I rinsed it then dryed it out thouroughly. I tested it with my air compressor. The needle moved!. I reassembled it and finished installing the lantern parts. My local hardware store was closed for the US Memorial Day holiday. I had some diesel (US diesel is "low sulfur") and filled the tank half way. after pumping a lot, I got about 1.5 bar. I left it on my bench with the valves closed. I came back in 2 hours and the needle hadn't budged. Seal is good. After watching a movie with my wife, I went back to my shop and did the startup. I used denatured alcohol (I guess the UK calls it Methylated Spirits, or Methyl Alcohol) to condition the mantle. I gambled and went for the startup. Success! A little sputter, but the mantle fired up nicely. Damn it's BRIGHT. The tank was at 1.5 bar, or about 23 psig. I didn't need to go any higher in pressure for my first test. I took a chance with the somewhat damaged lantern. I straightened it out, fixed a few things, and fired it up. I now have another source of light. I'm an engineer (electrical) by profession. I come from a family of technicians, machinists, mechanics. I love rediscovering my family roots, and getting out from behind the damn computer. Thanks for the help and encouragement.
Can someone tell me which "flavor" of Butterfly I have? It is has a chromed steel tank. It was originally imported to Canada. I uploaded a photo of the factory box it came it. There is absolutely no country of origin markings. I suspect the mantles are from India or Indonesia, but I'm not sure. I'm pleasantly surprised at how bright it is. You can see in my photo how it lit up my West Wight Potter sailboat tonight. I love resurrecting someone's obsolete equipment and giving it new life. I also love rediscovering older, simpler technology and making it work. Stu Los Alamos, NM, USA
Hi @sbbloom69 That’s good work with sorting everything out, it’s working well Yes they give out plenty of light! here is a link to the makers , hope you will find it interesting www.industrialhistoryhk.org
Butterfly is a brand of the Lea Hin Group of companies. Head office/factory is in Singapore and they have factories in Beijing, Hong Kong and Indonesia. ::Neil::
Great outcome and a nice job getting your Butterfly lantern up and running. Yes, the Butterfly is a trade name belonging to Lea Hin. The lantern products usually come in boxes like that shown in your picture. They don't usually indicate the country of origin. These lanterns had been produced in various places the Far East and Southeast Asia. The factories are known to be scattered over those regions, example, in Hong Kong, Macau, Myanmar, Indonesia and possibly Malaysia too. There had been factories in Singapore in the past as well. The information on the exact locations of the factories is largely obscure. The Butterfly brand and products is still in existence today but Lea Hin had already diversified their product range to include many modern day appliances as their main products. Today, most of the lanterns are made of chrome-plated steel and in Indonesia. The quality of these had not been particularly consistent over the years and batches. Some were very good, others, mediocre. I believe certain special consignment to selected countries such as Germany would likely be products which are probably superior in quality as compared to those sold over much of Asia. For example, the Butterfly that is sold by Stuga-Cabana(Hytta.de). Sometimes, the boxes might indicate the country of origin. Earlier lanterns(possibly from Hong Kong, etc) were made of nickel-plated brass. I do have one of those. That unit is considerably better in quality than most found in more recent years.
Thanks to @Mackburner and @MYN go the clarification.. I just checked my link and it has changed a bit? When I first checked it went straight to the page about Lea Hin.. oh well..
Thanks for the links. I was able to navigate and find the Lea Hin story (and some others). It was pretty fascinating. Those of us living in the "western world" don't often see that there are individuals or groups that have an idea, develop it, and either make a lot of money or solve a big problem for everyone, or both. I like resurrecting or restoring older technology. My wife and others don't understand most of the time. "Why don't you just go buy a new one?". That's not the point. I restored a 1960 Onan 2-cylinder boxer generator (4 kW). It puts out 30+ amps at 120 volts, AND has a 12v DC generator/starter. There aren't any semi-conductors to fail on it. I can repair almost any part of it. It just works. I resurrected a 40 year old Coleman gas lantern (memories of camping in Florida in my youth). I also restored a carbide mining lantern that my grandfather used in the 20's. Finally, I'm working on an old Lucas carbide bicycle headlamp. The carbide restorations got a lot of help from the affiliated site here. Keep up the great work. These hobby sites help ensure the knowledge and experience gets passed on.
Another question or 2. My second startup using Diesel. This time, I tried the fast torch starter. It didn't go as well. The torch seemed to have a lot of smoke / carbon (probably expected). This seemed to contaminate the mantle. After I got the mantle going, there were several black soot splotches on it. It took a good 5 minutes for these soot or carbon splotches to burn off. Quickly running the needle up and down seemed to help burn the spots off quicker. Is this normal? I'm going to go down and get a gallon of kerosene today and re-try everything. I was happy to get the lantern going on diesel. I will test the starting torch again on kerosene to see if it starts better. The alcohol pan starter works fine. Also, on this 2nd run, the lantern was "pulsing" at about once per second. Not much, but enough to pulse the brightness of the light from the mantle some. And I could hear the hissing pulse a bit. I was running the pressure at about 1.25 to 1.5 bar. I ran the lantern for 15 minutes. The pulsing never changed. Finally, the 2 leather cups that came with my lantern both seem to be a little small. Neither wants to seal perfectly in the pump bore. The spare worked better. But, it's taking me 100 to 200 pumps to get the pressure up to 1.5 - 2 bar. I made sure the leather was saturated with oil. I plan on making a leather cup die to make my own, but I have to get the leather. In the mean time, I want to purchase a couple. There are lots of adds for the Coleman leather cups. But they look like they are bigger than the Butterfly cups. Can I get the Coleman cups to work or are they too big? Thanks Stu
You might need some work on the 'rapid' preheater torch. When working properly, it should be producing a predominantly pale blue flame, often, with a tiny bit of pale yellow at the flame's tip. A small bit of yellowish flame at the flame tips doesn't affect its performance. Not a sooty one, of course. The flame should not soot up anything in the lantern. It should be a roaring, turbulent jet of flame, somewhatsimilar to those produced by liquid-fueled blow torches of old. With pure diesel as the fuel, you'd certainly need to preheat a little longer than with kero. This is one of my steel-bodied Butterfly lanterns operating solely with low-sulfur, 'Euro 5' road diesel back in 2018. That was about as bright as I could make it: We do have some things in common. I'm also an Engineer by profession, Electrical/electronics as well. Nevertheless, I'm not a fan of electrifying a classic lamp or lantern no matter how bad its been compromised over the years. I do like the robust, simplicity of older electrical devices without the fancy electronic stuffs found these days. No on-board, miniaturized semiconductors to fail. Near-indefinite lifespans and a faulty unit is almost always resurrectable. As for the pulsing in your lantern, you might want to try stuffing some bronze wool into the vertical section of the generator. Many of us have succesfully remedied the problem using it. It'd help reduce or eliminate the so-called 'Leidenfrost effect'. It'd somewhat prevent a backflow or cycling of the expanding fuel (back and forth) between the heated generator and the fount. The usual leather cups for the Coleman are a little larger in diameter than those found on the Butterfly. They won't fit in. I can't recall if the size of the cups found in smaller Coleman lanterns (such as the 242 or the 249) could fit into the Butterfly's pump or not. If you have any of those at hand, then maybe you might want to check them out.
Well, I tried Myn's suggetion. Now I've done something. I guess I put too much bronze wool into the vaporizer. When I tried to start it, it never fully vaporized the fuel. I kept getting a stream instead of vapor out the jet into the burner chamber (with lots of flames). I tried the fast burner again but didn't get it started in time. I disassemble the vaporizer again and pulled out the bronze wool. I bumped the mantle and broke it so I had to replace it. I started the unit up again, with the alcohol pan to condition the mantle. When I started the lantern on fuel, it started out fine. But after about 5 minutes the lantern cycled. The mantle got a real rich fuel mixture, with lots of yellow flame and soot. Then it would clear up and start to burn properly again. This happened about every minute. then it got worse, the cycle every 15 to 30 seconds. My pressure was satisfactory. This didn't happen the first time I lit the lantern. The jet needle didn't seem to make a difference. Could I have impurities in my fuel? I used the screen funnel to fill the tank. It's almost like a carburetor that gets a real rich mixture, either too much fuel for the air or too little air for the fuel at the chamber and mantle. The hissing from the vaporized changes in sound when the yellow flame/soot happens. I'm going to try a run with kerosene. I may disassemble and clean stuff again. Can any of you tell me if anything needs to be changed for high altitude? I live at 7000 feet. All internal combustion engines tend to run rich and produced 15% less horsepower because of the low air density here. Are the jet changes that need to be made at high altitude? Finally, how long should I run the fast start torch to heat the vaporizer before attempting to start the fuel? It sure drops the pressure pretty fast. I've not had success with the torch. I've had to use the alcohol pan. Stu
Stu, At an elevation of 7000ft, you'd be only having around 77% the barometric or atmospheric pressure at sea level. Vaporization wouldn't be that much of a problem unless it is very cold as well. We'd be more concerned over the amount of oxygen present for any given volume of air instead. Anyway, I usually use around 3 successive full cups of alcohol/spirit to light a diesel fueled lantern. I had started my lantern at 2 bar(~30psi). There wasn't any flareups or yellow flames or soot. The mantle would glow bright almost instantly. The diesel-fueled lantern in my previous picture was running at 3 bar fount pressure. In general, diesel requires a lot of oxygen/air to burn completely. For any common liquid fuel, it has the highest calorific value per unit volume. You'd have some difficulties when using diesel on the lantern at such a high elevation. Kerosene would certainly be easier in your situation. Anyhow, since you had successfully started and ran it with diesel in your previous attempts, I'd say what you're getting now is a new problem. I'm not sure if you had by any chance, messed up the jet/gas tip orifice or not. The slightest enlargement can effectively render it useless. The orifice has a nominal diameter of 0.2mm. The needle is about 0.19mm. In the course of cleaning or disturbing the vaporizer, it is also easy to free up a lot of dirt and soot within it. Make sure you test it with fuel without firing the lantern. Remove the inner hood, pump up the lantern and release the fuel. Observe that you're getting a straight, sharp and thin stream of fuel shooting upwards. It should not be spraying, dripping or skewed sideways at any angle other than the vertical axis. I used a short section of metal braiding from a thermocouple cable for the stuffing in the vaporizer. I just slid it over the cleaning rod. Not too tightly. You don't want too much material obstructing free movements of the cleaning mechanism within. In any case, I'd just use kerosene during the troubleshooting period. Make sure the J-tube mixer is still correctly positioned within its assembly. If all looks well, try to start the lantern without a mantle attached. Ensure that you're getting a clean, pale blue flame at the ceramic burner before proceeding to tie-up another mantle. It is crucial to get the combustion working properly first.
Thanks for the input. I drained my tank and refilled with fresh Kerosene. I pumped it up to about 1.5 bar. My pump is still poor. It took me over 5 minutes and hundreds of pumps. I again started it with methyl alcohol. Started fine. I ran it for about 15 minutes then I had to shutdown and go do some "honey-do" chores. Next I want to try the fast starter. I really need to get a better leather pump cup. Has anyone tried one of the Schrader valve pump caps (replaces the cap/pressure gauge with a tire valve you fill from a compressor)? I've seen them for a Petromax 500, which I'm told most of the parts are the same. If I keep the pressure under 2 bar (i have a good secondary regulator on my compressed air system), it might be a quicker way to experiment until I improve my pump. So, my lantern works good enough with Kerosene. I'll experiment more with the diesel when I get some more time. I'm still figuring out how to do this thing called "retirement". I have lots of projects planned. From the previous post by Myn. I do get a nice thin stream from the generator jet. I understand the air fuel ratio issues. That's what I was expecting. I think once I can get consistently to 2 to 3 bar, I'll be OK. That should lean-out the fuel air ratio to a better level for startup and running on diesel. Myn: when you say you use 2 or 3 pans of alcohol, do you run one out, and just add more to the pan? Ther's no worry of flashing or catching the fill bottle on fire? Thanks for the comments. Never stop learning new things ....... Stu
Allow it to burn out first before adding new alcohol. Yes, a schrader type valve for the new Petromax retrofit would also fit in: Anyway, can you post a picture of your pump piston/leather cup? There had been a few variants. Some use o-rings and plastic pistons. I don't have good experience with those. They don't seem to work well for me. Some have movable pistons on the pump stem to function similarly to a check valve during the pulling and pushing strokes of the pumping. A good leather cup is still the best. It should seal tightly around the pump tube's inner surface. It shouldn't be too thin and flipping over on the push stroke. Make sure to oil it well. I have use grease in the past instead of oil on some compromised leather cups to make up for their poor sealing. A hundred strokes to attain 1.5 bar is abnormal. It only took me about 60 strokes to attain 2 bar pressure when the fount is fully filled(normal filling, not overfilling) with fuel.
I'm learning. My pump is the kind with the leather cup, sandwiched between a brass washer and a brass nut. This slips over the pump shaft and is secured with a smaller nut. The leather cup has its open end towards the tank so that it seals properly. The brass washer and the shaft are machined to seal when the pump shaft is pushed down, and there is slop on the up stroke so air can get passed to the front of the cup for the next stroke (like a check valve). Both of my leather cups are not very symmetrical. They are pretty rough. I took the best one, and really oiled it up. Then I added some petroleum jelly to really seal the cup to the pump bore. I was able to get a much better seal and pumping action. It still took 200 strokes, but I got up to just over 2 bar. I tried the starter torch, continuing to pump for about 30 seconds while watching the mantle. I had a good strong blue flame, which I've never had before. The already-conditioned mantle lit up nice and white. Success! I timed it just right. Just as the pressure was getting down to 1 bar, I slowly opened the generator valve, and saw the mantle catch. I immediately closed the torch. Nice bright light, no soot spots. I do still have just a little pulsation. I'll try the bronze wool again. Just a little to see if that settles the pulsation, now that I have the feel for how to start the lantern on the torch. Whether the torch or the alcohol pan, you have to let the generator / vaporizer work its magic before opening the main valve. Should I put the small amount of bronze wool between the vaporizer loop and the needle, just below the jet or further down below the vaporizer loop, closer to the cam fitting. I'm thinking closer to the top, that way I'm just damping the vaporized gas slightly. Now I just have to get me some new leather cups, and make my cup die, get some leather and make my own. Maybe after all of that, I'll try the diesel again. But, since I bought 2.5 gallons of Kerosene, I'll have enough for a while. Thanks again, Stu
Congratulations for getting the torch and lantern lighted up nicely. You need to verify whether it is a real periodic pulsation or just some random flicker. The lantern usually operates best at around 2 to 2.5 bar fount pressure. That is to ensure the combustion within the mantle is sufficiently strong to adequately and continuously heat the vaporizer by means of convection and radiation. A random flicker is normal for most lanterns. A periodic pulsation is something that can be eliminated or reduced. Bronze wool only works for the latter. It is inserted within and along the straight section of the vaporizer, just below the constricted section near the loop. Sometimes, pulsations can go away with a higher operating pressure. You can pack in any amount, as long as it doesn't obstruct or hinder the operation of the cleaning needle's rod. As long as it isn't completely blocking fuel passage. Try to work on the pump. It could be way better with a good leather. The leather needs to be soft, pliable enough to take on any irregularities on the pump tube's inner wall. It needs to be snug enough yet smooth on the strokes. You should be able to hear the characteristic 'squirt' of air with each push-stroke of the pump, making its way through the fuel pool within the fount. Bad leather makes the strokes partial or ineffective, requiring absurdly huge numbers...
Hi, Again, thanks Myn for the observations. What I thought was a burping noise associated air passing back by the leather cup, was just as you described: the burping / squirting noise is the shot of pressurized air passing the pump check valve into the tank. The pump outlet is below the surface of the fuel in the tank, thus the bubbling / burping noise. Normal behavior. Armed with this, I was able to pump confidently, and achieved about 2 bar is about 30 seconds, maybe 50 to 80 pumps. I tried this Sunday night. I just went out, pumped it up, lit the torch, continued to pump, watched the mantle and generator get hot, opened the fuel valve, watched the mantle catch, and shut the torch valve. Pumped it back to 2 bar, and enjoyed the light. Easy peasy now that I know what to look and listen for. As is my way sometimes, I was "overthinking" my observations and trying to solve a non-existing problem. I"m all set now. I think we can put this thread to rest, at least for me. I hope the thread helps others with no experience with a kerosene pressure lamp. I'm glad I was able to dis-assemble, clean, and restore the pressure gauge in the cap. I may try the diesel again, but not until I run out the kerosene I have. Now I"m going to build a small box for the lantern so that it stays looking nice between uses.
