First Light - Butterfly 826/350 c.p.

Discussion in 'Pressure Lamp Discussion Forum' started by Keith Cochran, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. Keith Cochran

    Keith Cochran United States Subscriber

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    I suppose my first lighting should be my avatar... Yes...???
    I would love to do something with that red Coleman (and the others)...
    Guess I'll be seeing you around... ;)
     
  2. ROBBO55

    ROBBO55 Subscriber

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    Welcome to CPL @Keith Cochran

    Congratulations on getting it going :thumbup:

    As the lantern looks unused the flame outside of the mantle could be caused by an incorrect setting of the mixing tube.

    In the link provided by Jeff, look at the rebuilding instructions, chapter 9.
    Sometimes you need to increase the gap beyond what's recommended to get the best out of your lantern.
     
  3. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

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    There are nice Petromax marked bottle openers.
    Oops is this now off topic or on topic ?:-k

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Source:www
     
  4. Keith Cochran

    Keith Cochran United States Subscriber

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    I did go through that section and had planned to see if that makes an improvement...
    And I think I saw a video that covered that as well...
    We'll see what happens but I probably won't have time for a couple days...
    (or will I)...
     
  5. MYN

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    Those cap gauges varies greatly. They are not always accurate. With an old Petromax,(well working pump with metal knob), you should 'pump till your thumb hurts'. You don't even need a gauge:).
     
  6. Keith Cochran

    Keith Cochran United States Subscriber

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    I'm pretty sure I need a new gauge but I'm pretty sure I need new leather too...
    Originally at first glance I thought I had a cork replacement but after looking again it is leather...:content:
    It looks like I need to replace the needle too... I don't think they are supposed to look like this...
    I won't mess with adjusting the mix tube until I see how it reacts first...
    I can't figure where the other part goes...

    20201119_093249.jpg 20201119_101158.jpg 20201119_101539.jpg
     
  7. Fireexit1

    Fireexit1 United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Hi Keith. The needle is only there to clear blockages in the jet, often with care they can be straightened.. Soak the leather in oil. I use lanolin (neatsfoot oil in the UK) but others use olive oil, machine oil etc. The NRV/Non-return or check valve at the bottom of the pump "well" should also not be letting kerosine or air back up. You can test it by pumping up and puttling a little water in there to see the bubbles if it is letting pressure escape. If the lamp is not pressurising well it will never work well. The "air gap" is set with the jet in place. - the other part in the picture looks like a needle removal tool - a miniature tubular box wrench.
    Semper fi
     
  8. Fireexit1

    Fireexit1 United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Oh very nice. Definately on topic.
     
  9. Keith Cochran

    Keith Cochran United States Subscriber

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    Thanks, that is a small tool... It looked somewhat like the spirit tube but shorter and no holes...
    Thought maybe it went to another model...

    The shaft seems loose when I slide it in and out...
    On some strokes it slides in all the way with no effort...
    Then when you stroke you only have to force it after it's a couple inches...
    Then on some strokes it seems you have to force it in the whole way...

    I have the leather and oil so I might as well see what happens...
     
  10. JEFF JOHNSON

    JEFF JOHNSON United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Your other 3 lanterns are fine fettling projects too!:thumbup:
     
  11. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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    @WimVe @Fireexit1

    Definitely too nice to start drilling holes in so that it can be fastened to the workbench.
     
  12. Fireexit1

    Fireexit1 United Kingdom Subscriber

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    @Keith Cochran The symptoms are indicative of dry/damaged pump leather AND/OR failed check valve seal. One thing at a time. Oil :)
     
  13. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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    @Keith Cochran

    The needle may be leaning to one side but it is still cabable of doing what it's supposed to do. If anything's wrong with it, it's that it's sticking out too far. The rod needs adjusting so that there's between 0.5 and 1.0 mm (1/16" max.) poking through when the needle is up.
     
  14. Keith Cochran

    Keith Cochran United States Subscriber

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    Edit: I had already oiled the old leather which was not dry to begin with /Edit

    I didn't have to check the check valve... It checked itself overnight...
    Leak.jpg

    Kerosene in the tube...
    I checked with water and it's leaking pretty steady...
    Video too slow to upload due to not being able to pay the internet bill...
    Nobody has access to the account...lol...

    We'll get that straightened out but I think I need a new one of these...
    Unless there's a way to fettle it back to working order...
    It's as tight as it's going to get but it's not going to hold pressure...

    Edit:2
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/kGaWBixzYbJcL1rz5
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  15. Fireexit1

    Fireexit1 United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Well, this will explain much. - poor flame, flaring and the gauge not working. The gauge may have been telling the truth all along. I have never had a butterlfy made lamp
    but many of this type of lantern have the same basic design.
    if you just have a little water in it you can see if the bubbles are coming from the sides of the valve (seal between valve and the rest of the lamp) or if it is coming from the centre then the valve itself is leaking. Using suitable scredriver take the check valve out. Don't lose the washer. If it dissasembles you may be able to replace the rubber pip inside it.
    here is a photo of a petromax one : Restoration of a PETROMAX 829 Lantern

    I found this US distributor who stocks parts: Pressure Lantern and Parts : ST.PAUL MERCANTILE | Cool & Unusual Products. They might do a "service kit" with all the rubber bits in it.

    Chris
     
  16. Fireexit1

    Fireexit1 United Kingdom Subscriber

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  17. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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    @Keith Cochran

    Take the valve out and examine it before ordering anything. Some are non-serviceable, others are. There may be no need to purchase a complete new valve. part No. #17 is all you need.
    Check valve cone-part#17

    Or these from The Fettlebox NRV 4.5mm Pip - VITON. Pack of 5
    Just pick out the old pip and press in a new one.
    (Because some manufacturers used a slightly smaller brass cup, there's also a 4mm diameter version).
     
  18. MYN

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    You'll definite need to sort out the leakage at the NRV/checkvalve first.
    Usually, its the rubber pip to sitting well in the shut position. Or it has shrunk. Sometimes its the spring return cup not sliding straight inside the nrv tube. Anyway, you'll need to remove and inspect the NRV first.
     
  19. Keith Cochran

    Keith Cochran United States Subscriber

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    I think I remember seeing a little rubber "dot" when I first bought the lamp...
    All the parts were inside a zip bag but I"m guessing it fell out since I don't see it now...
    I don't mind ordering the parts (thanks for the link) I only have 1 spare mantle...
    Removal of the valve was easy...

    Is that some type of lead washer...?
    It's seen better days but it isn't broken...
    Pip is definitely a problem...

    valve.jpg pip.jpg pip2.jpg

    I went over it with a whet stone and might be able to get a seal (eventually) but I'll replace it...
     
  20. phaedrus42

    phaedrus42 Subscriber

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    If the rubber of the pip is still soft and pliable, you could swap it end for end. Check that the sealing lip that the rubber pip presses against is clean and smooth. Also check that the gas tip (jet) is tight enough to seal against its seat.

    Lastly, these lanterns are supposed to be soft-started, i.e. pre-heat without pressure in the fount and start pumping when alcohol is almost burned up.
     
  21. MYN

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    Rubber pips can easily be punched out from a sheet of Viton or buna-N rubber. The latter might not be as fuel or temperature resistant.
    I've made some using cork, which is softer and seals even better. Cork works better if you've got a weakened spring in the NRV.
    Yes, there's a lead sealing washer under the head of the NRV. Unless torn, these are seldom a problem and I've re-use them many times over.
     
  22. Keith Cochran

    Keith Cochran United States Subscriber

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    The pip doesn't want to go in the other way, I tried that last night and again today...
    I'll wait for the parts, they shouldn't take too long to arrive...
    I didn't consider this Butterfly to be a real project even though it's turning out to be one (for me anyway)...

    The small parts kit on the way so in the meantime...
    I have partially disassembled the red Coleman 200A since everyone says it won't take too much to get running...
    This will be my first ever lantern repair but after taking most of it apart I can see this working again...

    Coleman 200A.jpg Coleman 200A Back.jpg Coleman 200A Parts.jpg

    It just needs 100.00 in parts then I'll have a 50.00 lantern when I'm done... :)
     
  23. Fireexit1

    Fireexit1 United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Welcome to the dark light side ! You can fix up the Colemans before spending on the glass. They all look like they will clean up well. Colemans have less rubber in them.
    You will find lots of information about cleaning and setting them up on this site.
    cheers
    Chris
     
  24. Keith Cochran

    Keith Cochran United States Subscriber

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    Lots of cleaning I guess... I just did a little soapy water to start...
    I put a couple pieces on my parts dryer/griddle while I make some scrambled eggs and think about what to do next...

    Part Dryer.jpg
     
  25. podbros

    podbros United Kingdom Subscriber

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    A good start :thumbup:
     
  26. MikeO

    MikeO Subscriber

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    Nice! You even got the checkvalve out of the 200 (the thing on the end of the shaft the pump rod slides over). They can be absolute swines to remove without the proper removal tool. You'll find the Coleman a pretty straightforward cleaning project with very satisfying results.

    The star of your finds (and personal favourite) is the lefty in your Coleman group. That's a 427 Quicklite with the external pump tube from the mid-late-ish 1920s. A very desirable lantern that is easy to work on, and looks so elegant when cleaned and fitted with a mica chimney. Personally, I'd leave that one to last and develop your mad-skillz at lantern restoration on the 200, green 220, and the Iron Butterfly.

    Mike.
     
  27. Keith Cochran

    Keith Cochran United States Subscriber

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    Exactly my thoughts MikeO...
    I'll get familiar with things before I mess with the Quicklite...
    This one looked to be the easiest to work on and parts are easy to find (cheapest...?)...
    Lots of other irons in the fires right now but most of my spare time is spent in the shop...
     

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