Discussion in 'HASAG' started by Birdboy, Aug 10, 2015.
My friend is find it. I don't know this lamp. It's original or not.
Please see it.
Looks about right to me although there are some differences to the illustration I have. These lamps are a bit of a mystery because they are a direct copy of the Nulite Model 100 Storm King lanterns made in Chicago USA. They are so much alike that we did think they were maybe not made in Germany but re badged US product. Certainly the design is from around 1917-1918 and we know that Nulite exported a great deal of their lamps after WW1 to both Europe and the Far East. However I think these HASAG 100s were probably German made under license. I have only ever seen this one page of info for HASAG 100 and it appears to be dated 1928 which is a bit late for the model which I would have expected to be dropped from the HASAG line by around 1925. ::Neil::
It looks like a Nulite tank, fuel cap, and collar but the top end looks like an AGM 335. I would like to know how the cage comes off and if the valve screws into the center of the tank or offset?
Could still be US manufacturers and assembled there.
As you say the one above has the look of a hybrid with perhaps AGM parts. The problem is that they do look very like US made Storm King lanterns and perhaps more importantly we have seen so very few of them. However I do have images of two identical model 100 lanterns from other collectors. This one is owned by Colin Mills and the images are also his. These do look like Nulite product. ::Neil::
The ones you show do look like Nulite products but the first one posted is definitely an AGM top half. The vent and the way the bale attach are spot on. I have found many AGM products in other countries so it is totally likely that this one showed up there. As we all know the 335 was known to have bad tanks so it is highly likely this one was put on a good tank that was around at a repair shop. I have more questions about why the whole thing is nickel plated and looks like it was restored yesterday. My vote is a put together lantern from parts.
I have picture before repair.
Yes I agree the posted lantern does look like a hybrid. HASAG 100 should look like a Nulite Storm King and that one certainly has an AGM top. Both Nulite and AGM were exported all over from the US as were HASAG from Germany so it is easy to accept that parts for making a marriage could have been available just about anywhere. What we don't know is when this lantern was created. Could have been any time from around 1920 to last week. The clean finish is probably because the lantern was re plated as part of the "Restoration" ::Neil::
Firstly, the lantern isn't a hybrid. That I'm sure of.
What I'm not sure of is, the exact thinking surrounding the three manufacturers listed in posts above, Hasag, Nulite and AGM and their involvement in lanterns of this design and other designs such as the Storm King.
In general, it is said that the Storm King was a Nulite design used by Hasag. Is there any possibility that Nulite got their designs from Hasag?
Has anyone thought of the possibility that the very early (at least) AGM designs were under licence from Hasag? Or is that not a possibility?
If there is no possibility that Nulite nor AGM got the above burner design (and other sections of the lantern) from Hasag, it would be natural to think that either Nulite or AGM designed the burner. There seems to be an anomaly though. From what I read, Nulite is nearly always given credit as the developer of the burner yet I think AGM used the burner for a few years prior to Nulite. Is that correct? It certainly isn't out of the question that a company would lease a design before they themselves used it. Is that what happened?
Well if you manufacture USA based lanterns and you want to conquer the world, a license with a German manufaturer would not be bad. Made in Germany was and still is a big advantage when it comes to selling stuff be it a lantern or something else.
Personally I find the lantern displayed a very good example of a bad restoration. The new chrome doesn't match and reflect the age of the lantern.
Besides the fact that the air intake pipe is way to short and should go through the hole in the cage base plate.
Hasag is the sleeping giant of GPA history in my view. It is very problematic that Paul Budin blew up the Hasag offices thus depriving the world of Hasag information.
My observations are, that Hasag, prior to World War 2, had the pedigree and the capability to supply almost anyone with whatever combination of lamp they wished to license to manufacture or simply retail. I think Hasag had several variations in most of their lamps that a potential manufacturer or retailer could choose from.
The pedigree started way back in the 1860's but it is from 1899 that the modern Hasag should be looked at. 1899 was when the groundwork was laid for Hasag to become a monster manufacturer. When you consider that in 1939 Hasag had 3,700 employee's, you can begin to understand their capabilities, even from an earlier time. Coleman at their absolute maximum never had that kind of workforce. I think it should be mentioned that Hasag produced more than lamps by 1939 so not all of the 3,700 employee's were involved in lamp construction. Still, in 1930 they had 1,000 employee's mainly building lamp products. I expect that Hasag, influenced many European lamp manufacturers and it could be possible that Hasag either manufactured parts for their contemporaries or licensed their contemporaries.
I think the Molitor branded Hasag is a good example to look at.
I have zero doubts that Hasag manufactured the Molitor branded lamps and the Molitor badge was either added by Hasag to recognise the retail brand of Molitor or the Molitor badge was attached here in Australia, once the lamp arrived.
The Molitor lamp is what I think, the personification of how Hasag interacted with their retailing partners. Molitor wished to sell Hasag lamps but obviously with the Molitor brand name. Hasag, rivetted a plate/badge to the cage to their own branded lamps of this particular model. The badge stated Hasag and then the Model No. I think they had a Made In Germany plate also. In my Molitor lamps case, Hasag created a new plate/badge without the Hasag name, just the Model No which obviously stopped consumer confusion. The Molitor badge was soldered on to the fount and presto, the Molitor lamp was born. I can't find my Molitor to see if it has a Made In Germany badge. I simply can't remember if it does or doesn't have that badge.
Let's, just for a minute, consider it was Hasag that Nulite got the Storm King design from. I suspect that Nulite would have taken the U.S. license to manufacture and distribute the Storm King. That would include Nulite being able to grant further manufacturing and or retailing rights within the U.S. Nulite would have been able to refashion the patent to suit their own manufacturing purposes. That happened a lot, you only need to look at Coleman and Sunshine Safety products to know variations were made to patents. Patents often stated that variations were allowed but if variations were patented, the original patent was still the hallmark.
Now that the minute has expired, it is probably clear what I think happened between Nulite and Hasag. I am not stating that is what factually happened. I have come to my conclusions based on how I see the known evidence. That does not make me right.
I could go on and on about this subject but I'd rather hear other points of view. I'd like to hear from someone that believes it was Hasag that took a license from Nulite and hear their rationale. Perhaps if as many cards are laid on the table as possible, some meaningful conclusions can be drawn from the pool of information.
I just realised I did go on and on.
I was sorry to find Hasag's deplorable war time work practises. It really took the gloss off a subject I find fascinating.
Well for me the "Nulite" gasoline design is so radical different from other german lamp patents that it makes me wonder why?
Also there is no further developement in HASAG products as far as I know of this design.
This design was radical only because it was one of the first - if not the first, to be used in a lantern. The design is a contemporary of the Preston Loop and may even have pre-dated the Preston Loop. So, the many German designs of later years were radical to this design not so much the other way round.
If Nulite had developed this design, it was out of left field. I am unaware of any other major contribution to GPA development made by Nulite either before or after this design. In fact, most of Nulites lamps were essentially from the Stone Age up until this design was used by them. On the other hand, Hasag had been manufacturing lamps for 50 years prior to this design and I believe it is they that had the resources and technical skill to develop not only burners but entire lamp designs.
Again, the Molitor lantern is a perfect example of further design of this product. Hasag re-developed the pricker system. They removed the pricker lever from the top of the generator. They added a second wheel that operated the pricker. It is a vastly superior way of operating the pricker.
I still have a problem with all this but as I have said before the jury is still out. The Nulite patent US1257175 was applied for March 29th 1917. This is essentially the Storm King lantern and near enough identical in design to Hasag 100. There is no doubt both companies were making the same lantern in the 1920s BUT the Storm King was in the 1915/1916 Nulite catalogue and we know this lamp was being exported to the far east by 1918 and probably into Europe at the same time. Hasag were still patenting upright mantle burners in 1915 - DE349532 and seem not to have patented anything like the 100 burner before about 1922. I can find no evidence that a lantern of this type was being made and marketed by a German manufacturer before the early 1920s. As far as I know the whole idea of a portable pressure lantern was an American concept and companies like Coleman, Acorn Brass, Nagel Chase and Nulite introduced them from about 1912 to 1916. I don't recall any German brands offering a lantern before the early 1920s. I do agree that the Molitor is an improvement to the design and most likely a Hasag innovation but that is a side issue when we are looking for evidence as to who designed or copied the Storm King. I don’t know the answer to that but I feel it was an American idea copied in Germany. I just feel the timing is wrong for it to be a German design. ::Neil::
Neil, I'm very glad you have lent your knowledge on the subject. I'd like to go through a few of your points and perhaps we can discuss them further.
Before I go through your points, I'd like to add that I believe the above lantern pre-dates the Storm King. The type of cage on this lantern was used by AGM from 1912, which is probably the earliest lantern of the major GPA manufacturers. I have (One of only two known) an AGM Hollow wire pendant lamp with a lantern head and it is essentially, the same head as the OP lantern but with a wide brim. I have evidence that Acorn Brass also used the same lantern head with a tripod cage on a similar lantern to the one the OP shows. So, I believe in fact that the Storm King is a further development of the OP's lantern probably done so to keep manufacturing costs down.
Neil, I don't believe the patent is for the lantern, it is for the deflector ring. Bandlow clearly states that. His invention is shown in full lines with the lantern not included in the invention shown in dotted lines. Bandlow does mention appendage. Appendage to what is not clear as he does not cite any lantern invention of his own.
The question of when the Storm king first appeared isn't in doubt IMO. One thing I'd like to mention is, the original, first year Storm King that Nulite showed illustrations of, had a Hasag collar on it. In fact, I noticed that with one of Nulite's later lanterns that the initial year illustrations depicts a Hasag collar. The Collar used by Hasag has the two embossed rings top and bottom of the collar.
Most of the information I read in regards to German lamps seems to be from the 20's onwards. I don't think that means there wasn't earlier lanterns and lamps. So, I do think there is a chance Hasag sold these types of lanterns and even if they didn't, it most certainly doesn't preclude them as the designer of the lanterns. That was their thing, designing and manufacturing lamps. I suspect they had a lot of designs they either didn't use or licensed them to other GPA companies.
I think it is terribly difficult to know just what a lot of the German companies were doing, especially in the early years. So much information seems to have been lost or is unaccounted for. So many lamps and lanterns lost in two world wars and the brass drives after each of those wars. Someone may be able to correct me.
There are most definitely lamps and lanterns unaccounted for from the American market. My recent find of the Acorn Brass lantern and another lantern that I was shown a few days ago which has Nulite stamped on it will confuse things even further. I have no doubts there will be others. Others that like this lamp, that may be considered a hybrid, which this lamp is certainly not.
Patent DE367426A from 1922 Hugo Schneider gives almost the HASAG top we still know today.
The vaporiser however is a mystery.
Patent DE425220A from 1924 from Hugo Schneider is getting close to the Stormking mystery.
Patent DE461698A from 1926 shows a joint venture of E&G, Hirschhorn and Hugo Schneider with a lantern model that already looks like the final Petromax type we know.
So there must have been an joint venture between the major German manufacturers.
The design is completely different then the, let say, US gasoline types.
Thanks for your input.
As we know, patents had a certain life span after which patent protection ran out. I don't think it is very surprising that by the early 20's manufacturers were retweaking old patents and patenting them again.
The Storm King burner mystery patent that you mention is really a further case of just how maddening it can be when trying to make sense of patents. It is applied for in 1924 and granted in 1926. The document cites French, British and American patents of contemporary age to itself yet it does not cite the all important original patent. I simply don't get why the earlier 'Storm King burner' patent wasn't cited.
Wim, I couldn't locate the 290019 patent that is cited. Perhaps you could?
This Storm King lantern as shown in a 1914 Nulite catalogue screams Hasag to me. It looks more like a design drawing to me that was later to become Hasag 51 or 551.
@Mackburner are you aware of any of this shaped Storm Kings being found? I'd be interested to know if this lamp was ever manufactured in this specific design.
@Matty here you go: DE290019A
That is US patent US1142814 and Adolf Kaufman was the Powerlight Company in New York. Adolf bought all of George Washington's patents around 1907 and I assume would have been improving on those. That twin inverted mantle mixing chamber/cross head and torch lit generator type of burner/generator was in a Washington patent in 1897/8 and a lamp with that type of burner was sold by Kaufman in 1912. The burner/generator is near enough the Air-O-Lite type as used by Coleman Etc from about 1911 onwards and is, with a pricker, the same as the Nulite Model 10.
No I am not aware of any examples of that 1914 Storm King. Wasn't really that one I meant anyway because that is not a copy of the Hasag 100. The 1916 type is though and I can't think right now of a burner patent for that. The Acorn Unilite was on sale from at least October 1915 and that is near enough the pattern for the Storm King. Nulite purchased all the assets of Acorn in February 1914 and Acorn Brass was re-incorporated as a subsidiary to National Stamping. So in effect the Storm King is an Acorn design in 1916 and probably the later part of 1915. I suspect any patents for the Nulite burner are perhaps actually Acorn's and from before 1914.
Hasag or Nulite/Acorn? I agree either is possible but without positive evidence I still don't know. ::Neil::
Perhaps I haven't been explaining my point of view very well.
I realise that the 1914 lantern that is shown in the Nulite catalogue is not a copy of the 100. I don't think it was manufactured.
I think the Hasag 100 and or the Nulite 100 were the final result that was settled on after three years of the earlier design. I think lanterns like the OP pre-dated the 100 by 3 years. The AGM lanterns with this head certainly did pre-date the 100 by 3 years. If Nulite were the inventors of this lantern, it should have been in their 1912 and 1914 catalogues.
I think the cage was re-designed so it could be manufactured cheaper and the Storm King is the end result. The lanterns earlier than the 100 had the tripod cage supports and the hood was permanently attached to the cage supports. The entire lantern head was attached or removed from the tank by a locking/unlocking mechanism. I doubt it would have been all that popular, I certainly don't like it.
This is the cage and hood from my AGM 721 hollow wire lantern head. It has the Strom King burner. You can see the locking points on the outer edge of the cage base plate. The three cage supports would lock onto the cage base plate by a twisting motion.
On the overhead photo of the hood you can see a couple of the cage supports that terminate on the outside of the hood.
I was using the Molitor as an example of further design of the 100. I'd forgotten that Hasag marketed the Molitor as their Model 102. The difference between the Molitor and Hasag 102 is, the Hasag name has been removed and a Molitor badge soldered on. The retailer that sold the Molitor in Australia were just that, retailers. There can be little doubt that Hasag sold the lanterns to Molitor.
When did AGM come into this? That tripod globe cage was just on the 721 which certainly wasn't on offer until after 1916. The bayonet cage lock was however used on AGM 335 and that is in the 1916 catalogue and that has a four post cage and the AGM G type generator and pricker. So that means the 721 globe cage is later than the four post design by several years and could not be the design model for the Storm King.
It is generally reasonable to assume that a lamp in a catalogue was in stock and available to order. You don't advertise a product for sale that you don't actually have so I would be very surprised if that 1914 Storm King was never made. Mind you catalogue illustrations don't always tell the truth so it is possible if you ordered that what you actually got was the 1916 type. The lack of known examples might reinforce that but I don't like accepting a lack of evidence as proof.
None of this gets us closer to who designed the Storm King or Hasag 100. Acorn/Nulite were selling it in 1915 and I am not aware of Hasag selling a lantern of any persuasion that early. Maybe they did but where are they? We may be lacking evidence of a designer but we do know who was selling it and when. That evidence strongly suggests it was an American design but certainly doesn't prove it. Which gets me back to where I started and I just don't know who copied what.
That is incorrect as this 1912 AGM lantern shows.
That is incorrect. AGM used the tripod cage and the 'Storm king' burner on their 1912, Model No 336. I doubt AGM invented the burner, cage and fount.
I can assure you, Acorn Brass also used it.
In the OP's lantern, you are possibly looking at one.
I'll leave it here. I thought I could get across information that shows other GPA manufacturers used essentially, what was to become the Storm King that Nulite eventually used, 2 to 3 years prior to Nulite. Obviously, I'm not capable of that so it is best to exit because we are just going around in circles.
I am more then happy to be corrected BUT does your nice AGM also have the hole in the lower globe cage under the air intake which is there to welcome the lower end of the pipe ?
Just for reference.
I have been messing around with a Nulite Giant and the Molitor (Hasag 102) and lit them both. The Molitor is brighter than the Nulite Model 18. I would say the reason why is, the burner tube and cap on the Hasag is larger than the Nulite. They are not interchangeable. It was daylight when I lit the Molitor though it was a heavily overcast and rainy day so it was reasonably dull inside.
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