Kayen AP2 Handle pattern & advice on shade.

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by MozzoSA, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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    Hello from South Australia.
    Yet another newbie here looking for assistance.

    This one is my second fettling and my first Kayen.
    This one has come to me with a few bits missing so I'm looking for help making new parts.

    Firstly the handle and mounting collets are missing. Would anyone perchance have an AP2 with a good handle that could be traced onto a pattern that I could copy. Would need to know the wire diameter also.

    Not sure what to do about the collets, I'm assuming they are machined brass devices. I am an ex fitter & turner with a lathe so I could probably turn something up but would like to see a photo of a dismantled one to work out the design from.

    Also looking for advice on what the best approach is for replacing the shade.

    Finally does anybody know who in Australia would be able to re-do the vitreous enamel coating on the hood.

    Thanks in advance
    Moz


    IMG_20190921_174607.jpg
     
  2. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Moz

    I can supply you with a handle (bail) for you to copy. or the drawings, whichever you prefer. The collets are machined brass.

    I can draw the shade...

    As for the vitreous enamel shade, I'm looking at putting together a rather large batch of hoods, so stand by. The one you have is in good condition so don't re-enamel it. Give me a few months on the hoods.

    Tony

    @MozzoSA
     
  3. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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    Hey Tony that was a fast answer.

    If you could trace the bail onto graph paper and include the wire diameter then scan or photograph it that would be fine.

    I have a reasonable machine shop over here so it wont be hard to make up with a wooden form board to work on.

    I’m thinking I might buy a couple of brass drill collets on Ebay or Ailiexpress and thread the bottom of them.


    Keep me Posted on the hoods.

    Don’t know if the picture showed it but my hood has a lot of the enamel chipped off and the surface corroded black, hence the interest in re-enameling it.


    I’m wondering if the shade could be made by the metal spinners at soverign hill.


    Regards

    Ray
     
  4. JEFF JOHNSON

    JEFF JOHNSON United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Welcome aboard!:thumbup:
     
  5. BigStevie

    BigStevie United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Hi Moz and welcome to the forum from the Scottish Highlands.
     
  6. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

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    @MozzoSA
    Welcome from Toowoomba.
    I have had a similar problem with a shade and found a reproduction shade from an English bay of evil supplier “Juliands”
    Here is the link.

    TILLEY LAMP REFLECTOR KEROSENE LAMP PARAFFIN LAMP CAMPING LAMP | eBay

    This shade is almost identical to the original excepting the retaining clips. These can be made and fitted.

    60C61536-2C2F-4C76-9294-46FD584979F6.jpeg

    The above is an original shade showing the retain clips.

    Cheers
    Pete
     
  7. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Ray

    If you go the Juliands route for your reflector, I’ll trace the clips for you.

    Pete

    What did you use to attach the retaining clips to the reflector?

    Tony

    @MozzoSA @AussiePete
     
  8. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

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    @Tony Press
    I have purchased a repo shade from Juliands but I have not fitted the retaining clips yet. I plan to emulate the original and make rivets and peen them holding the clips. I’m going to experiment with scrap pieces of metal first to perfect the technique.
    Cheers
    Pete
     
  9. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

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    I just thought, I could show the steps in a future post.
    Cheers
    Pete
     
  10. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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    Thanks for the pointer to Juliands Pete. He is away at present so I will put that part on hold for now. When I do I will get back in touch for the clips.

    I've ordered a couple of pinvice collets on Aliexpress. Going to have a bit of a wait for them to arrive. The plan is to drill and tap to the threads on the font.

    Ray
     
  11. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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    While I'm at it, I've noticed a few variations on the wire retainer around the glass. Some are simply twisted wire and some look a bit like spring steel wires that are formed with the loop around the bottom of the bulb. Which is genuine Kayen, does anyone know?
     
  12. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Genuine Kayen was twisted steel wire.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  13. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

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    @Tony Press and @MozzoSA
    It’s so great this passion of ours, the variations keep popping up.
    I have seen 2 examples, one being mine, that have twisted brass wires, for all intents and purposes they have been on the said lamps for yonks.
    These brass wires could be a later replacement coz twisted steel wires could rust and need replacement.
    Cheers
    Pete
     
  14. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Pete

    That may well be correct. I haven’t seen spring steel, though.

    I’ll check my unfettled ones.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  15. ROBBO55

    ROBBO55 Subscriber

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    G'day @MozzoSA and welcome.
    I made new retaining clips for the shade on this Tilley EX100. They are the same as the Kayen. There is a photo in the post that can be used as a template.
    EX 100
    The rivets I used were 5/32" from memory .
    I'm away until November so can't help with more detail at the moment.

    @AussiePete
     
  16. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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    Thanks guys. I did make a twisted steel wire using galvanised .7mm wire. It looked weak so i made a second version with a double loop (4 strands in all). It looks to be strong and flexible enough but remains a bit agricultural to my mind. I might have a look into making one from brass wire next as that allows better engineering. Now to track down some 1mm brass wire…
     
  17. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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    Ps. I wonder which is the more authentic Kayen bail wire. Brass or steel? I was originally planning 1/8th inch silver steel wire or the like. But noticed @ROBBO55 has a Tilley EX100 with brass. Steel would need to be annealed before bending. Brass to I guess but brass wont corrode in the long term. Ah so many variables… Ray
     
  18. Anthony

    Anthony Australia Subscriber

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    I believe the original wire for the glass is this.
    The same joins on both sides and you pull the sides out to shorten to suit the hook side.
    Very stiff steel.

    IMG_2567.JPG
     
  19. Anthony

    Anthony Australia Subscriber

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    This is from the Kayen catalogue.

    ddd.jpeg
     
  20. Anthony

    Anthony Australia Subscriber

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    Bails were in brass and steel with the nuts being brass.
    A lot of variations in the narling but Kayens we believe were always diagonal.

    Kayens were more rounded on the top of the nut.
    Tilley EX100 is on the right.

    IMG_2569.JPG

    IMG_2568.jpg
     
  21. JonD

    JonD Subscriber

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    Aww Snakes!!
     
  22. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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    Now that is REALLY useful info Anthony. Thanks very much for the photos.
    The retainer wire looks easy enough to make now that I see how its been done both sides. Start the twist around a mandrel the size of the bowl base and make the square loops at the ends last.

    I can easily turn up those bail nuts on my lathe.
    How is the bail wire held in the nut? is it peened out or flattened or something?
    I can match the knurl on the Tilley nut, but probably not the Kayen style exactly.

    Ray
     
  23. Anthony

    Anthony Australia Subscriber

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    The rod is close to 4mm.

    IMG_2581.JPG
     
  24. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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    So today's excersice in fettling was to test the vaporiser works properly and have another go at making the glass wire, this time using heavier wire and following the photos from @Anthony. Burner works fine. Wire well some sucess. Photos shortly.
     
  25. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    @MozzoSA

    Sorry... I’ve been flat out this week, and flying away tomorrow, so I haven’t drawn the bail.

    My apologies! Back on Friday.

    Tony
     
  26. Jean J

    Jean J Subscriber

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    Just wondered Tony, what’s the longest spell you’ve spent at home in the past two/three years? You always seem to be going off somewhere.
     
  27. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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    • 00100lPORTRAIT_00100_BURST20191012115002535_COVER.jpg IMG_20191012_185635.jpg IMG_20191012_185639.jpg
    • Had some fun twisting the wire. Not finished yet.
    • IMG_20191012_185651.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  28. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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  29. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Excellent! Anthony is a good lad.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  30. MozzoSA

    MozzoSA Australia Subscriber

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    It took me three tries to make an acceptable glass retainer wire.
    Heres how...
    • Clamp some 2mm galv wire around a 95mm round mandrel.
    • IMG_20191013_140852.jpg
    • Measure out 105 mm of length and bend at 90 deg
    • Using a split tool in a drill twist until the wire shortens to 95mm.
    • Finally bend the diamond shaped ends using a couple pairs of pliers. 00000PORTRAIT_00000_BURST20191013161816278.jpg 00100lPORTRAIT_00100_BURST20191013161829144_COVER.jpg
     

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