New Crisis?

Discussion in 'Open Forum' started by eiremax, Jun 24, 2016.

  1. eiremax

    eiremax Subscriber

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    A little bit of craic from a EU neighbour
    http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/06/24/thousands-of-british-refugees-make-dangerous-journey-across-the-irish-sea/
     
  2. expat

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    lol! That's a good one! Perhaps the Southern Irish may wish to leave the sinking ship too and join the UK though! ;) :whistle:
     
  3. eiremax

    eiremax Subscriber

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    In the unsteady seas I think that they be confusion as to which ship is sinking ;)
     
  4. expat

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    True!
     
  5. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    When millions of Turks and all the others climb on board, I think there'll be no doubt which ship is foundering...
     
  6. eiremax

    eiremax Subscriber

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  7. expat

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    True dat.

    I hope our leaders are wise enough to make the most of the golden opportunity that now presents itself for the UK!
     
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  8. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

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    ... politics and religion, the end of any forum.

    Gentlemen this is a lamp forum or did I miss something ?
    Yes I know it is in the open part.
     
  9. leo

    leo Germany Subscriber

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    Wim is right, this is not the place to discuss these themes.
    Probably they know what they do....
     
  10. expat

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    Wim & Leo, it's not so much politics now, it's something that has happened (for better or worse).
     
  11. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Wim and Leo - opinion presented as fact. We've had a bellyful of that over here these past few weeks... [-X =;
     
  12. eiremax

    eiremax Subscriber

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    When they take power, the Brexiters have a moral duty to think deeply and speak honestly about these effects of their victory.
     
  13. Derek

    Derek Subscriber

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    Some people seem to wish ill on something that has been a bane for a generation or more, that being the way in which we are governed - and yet either moan or/and suck up the lies being told. Yet when the people vote for a change, all of a sudden everything that went before is so much better than what they ASSUME will be their future and are willing to further generate a split with sarcasm and spite.

    Where were the moral duties of the current/previous government who have been so far removed from the people?

    The EU as has become, is unchangeable. It's desire is total control over all, and with no choice of removing them when they fail in any moral duty - in short - they have none.

    People want change. Had the 'Leavers' not been hobbled by the blatant nonsense spouted by the 'Leave' campaign with their buffoons, then I fancy over 70% of voters would have chosen out.

    Remainers are like frogs in a bucket, the water gets hotter and they don't notice. We're heading for the pond. It's not necessarily the utopia some might think, but we will out of the bucket. It's a big world, look forward to it. We are not the enemy. Those who enjoy the divisive nature they have created are.

    PS: It seems I am not alone. Have we given up on being able to govern ourselves?:

    The real reason why the British people voted as they did, it seems, was not due to the lamentably inadequate arguments put forward by Vote Leave, but by a deep sense that they no longer wish to be ruled by a system they don't understand and by a remote, self-serving political elite, wholly unresponsive to their concerns – exactly that sense of alienation we now see welling up across the EU.

    http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86119
     
  14. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    For me, that seems to just about hit the nail squarely on the head. :thumbup:

    Yes - however and in my opinion, they were equally matched (if not exceeded, even) by the lamentably inadequate arguments and scaremongering tactics put forward by Vote Remain.

    Well, I think that's my last word on this topic in these forums. Unless someone pushes me buttons, I suppose! - which isn't a challenge, by the way... ;) :lol:
     
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  15. eiremax

    eiremax Subscriber

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    Time will tell which side was right. We are hearing over here that the UK has 15 years worth of EU Payments lost from its economy since the few from the vote.
     
  16. Trojandog

    Trojandog Subscriber

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    Don't believe everything you 'hear'. The FTSE 100 is back up to mid June levels and the pound is slowly recovering. Both were artificially high in the days before the vote because investors had convinced themselves that the UK was going to vote Remain. When reality dawned, they panicked.

    I'm not saying the coming years will be easy, but at least if we make a dogs dinner out if it, it will be down to decisions and actions made by us, not by people outside our country, who we cannot hold to account.

    Merkel is now saying that great efforts must be made to prevent other countries from leaving the EU. Perhaps it may have been a good idea to put the same effort into preventing the UK leaving, instead of tossing us a few scraps.

    I voted Leave, and have seen no actions or statements from the EU since then suggesting I made the wrong decision; quite the opposite in fact.
     
  17. Derek

    Derek Subscriber

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    Likewise. The EU construct is a political union created to eradicate nationalities under one rule. Would the USA have joined? Would China? Would Australasia?

    The UK will now be subject to harrying from the EU so as to make leaving by other countries unattractive. The divisions created between individuals - even families in the UK, has to be heard to be believed. It was a close call, but the majority went for out.

    Both campaigns were conducted badly, and 'Leave' refused to adopt any plan for the future that could be presented to the public at large though one does exist Flexcit . Because 'Leave' gave no indication of any such plan, and because instead they harped on about fatuous sums and empty claims on immigration, many who might have voted out either voted remain - or not at all.

    A little history from 12yrs ago:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0WeURiShfU
    Some won't believe it, some won't want to. But there it is.
     
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  18. Wim

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    There has been produced an enormous amount of noice about "the majority" that voted "out". That, to me is the biggest lie in the whole campain! The majority DID NOT VOTE! 40% was not heard, just above half of 60% (which, if I get my calculations right) is just over 30% of the populace wanted to leave, just under half of 60% (just under 30%) wanted to stay.
    So, 40% not heard, 30%ish "in" 30%ish "out makes 100%, right?
    Is this your view of democracy???? Not mine!
    Don't get me wrong, I am NOT a great fan of the EU, on the contrary but this whole show is not exactly what I call democratic.
    I still hope taxfree Whisky will now reappear on the ferries! 8) :lol:

    Best regards,

    Wim
     
  19. Trojandog

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    Voting in the UK has never been easier - in person, by post or by proxy. They even extended the registration cut off date by two days, allowing more to register to vote. It is also possible to arrange an emergency proxy if you were prevented from voting by an accident or something. In spite of that, 27.8% of the electorate chose not to vote. That is their right and also their problem. I shed no tears for them.

    The majority of those who voted, voted Leave. I call that democracy.
     
  20. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    There was no majority that voted 'Remain', Wim, not by ANY way of reckoning, however imaginative.

    :-s :? How can 40% be a majority? Using your figures, 40% didn't vote but 60% did. Therefore those who voted at all were in the majority.

    The only countries which seem to get anywhere near 100% of the electorate (and sometimes it's actually more than 100%!) turning out to vote are the likes of the USSR and North Korea - neither of which can be even remotely considered to be a bastion of democracy.

    :-k Just as a matter of interest, what's the average elector turn-out in Belgium, Wim?
     
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  21. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    I thought the turn out was more like 70% but the figure is not important. You have to assume the people who did not vote are actually voting "Don't care" so they will be happy either way. Since we can assume these non voters are satisfied with the result then the percentage is actually much higher than 52% ::Neil::
     
  22. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    I don't know what the figure actually was but that seems reasonably close to the percentage given by Terry. So extrapolating from that we have ~30% - don't care; ~34% - Remain; ~36% - Leave.

    I agree with the rest of your reasoning absolutely - I couldn't have put it better myself... :thumbup:
     
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  23. Wim

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    :-k I'd say the average elector turn out would be 95+ David, as voting is compulsory. One can argue that is not a democratic principle but the number of blanco or invalid votes is quite low, especially when using electronic voting systems (these still allow you to vote "blanco" but invalid votes are not possible, most invalid votes were made by people who simply make silly mistakes, not on purpose). So, people actually voting "leave" are still less than 50% of the population, to bad we'll never really know how many UK citizens really want to opt out. We are also hearing all these "leave" voters saying they never expected the "leave" camp to win, they only wanted to make clear they are not happy with the way the EU is run. Many would now vote "remain". They merely wanted to make a statement.In the end, it all looks like a bad joke :roll: . I think there is still a need for a united Europe, it only needs to be run in a better (and yes, more democratic) way. Of course, we can discus this over and over again, in the end we'll just grow tired of it all ](*,) and won't get any wiser [-( :-({|= .

    Best regards,

    Wim
     
  24. Trojandog

    Trojandog Subscriber

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    From the BBC News website just now:

    "Surely, by now, stock markets should be through the floor and sterling engaged in a gutsy grapple with the Zimbabwean dollar for the crown of least-liked currency on global markets? It hasn't quite happened like that - despite some apocalyptic warnings before the referendum.

    The FTSE 100 has surged through the level it closed at last Thursday, recovering all of the ground it had lost in the wake of the Brexit vote."

    It is also reported that the EU markets are not doing so well.
     
  25. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Yes, but those voting to Remain are even fewer than that. Surely this concept isn't too difficult to grasp, Wim...

    Yes we do - it's just over 51% - the result of the Referendum as announced. If folk didn't exercise their right to vote, that was because they didn't care what the outcome of the Referendum was. Again, not a difficult concept, surely...

    What, "all" of them? I've never heard that - where did you hear it? I wouldn't believe what you get from the media...

    Yes - hopefully, very soon... [-o<
     
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  26. Claus C

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    This ”feeling” without facts is fit for a long list of countries having colonies, if you look at it from the exploited peoples side.

    It is typical an expression of disgust with politicians and since this feeling is so strong, I guess it comes from your own backyard while all the other politicians “is so remote”.

    No matter the disgust with politicians, local or not, then it wont change the fact that the EU is a good construction. EU is slow while it takes 27 countries to agree with each other, but then things goes fast, when implemented
    Common rules for trade, environment and regulation, criminals, agricultural support policy, fishing regulation and more has been a stunning success. Just think back to the 80’s (not the 1880’s) where all this wasn’t fixed well enough to quite work.
    Beside that the EU has a lot of good agreements with 3-partcountries, these agreements UK will have to negotiate again, but without the safety by numbers as EU is.
    Prices/value went up and down as the wind was blowing as ex. the oil still is, as most of it comes from the arabs. EU is stability.


    Of course the difference between the pound, the euro and the crown will be used, but not by bastards as David says, but by stockriders with common sense. Come on – what did you think David – anyone would use this difference in trade of the future to come - grow up :doh: .

    By not being in the EU, you have to make agreements every time you will trade, as with 3-part countries, also when exchanging criminals and when you want to “import” workers. We can just do that inside the EU as we wants.

    I still think the 1,8 % in difference at you election is a small margin to reject EU by :shock: , as this 1,8 % could tip to the other side anytime, if it ex. was raining or beach-weather hah :lol: .
    Allmost half of your population don’t agree in the decision, that’s close, but the change is going to be tremendous and expensive. If you were disgusted by politician before – then there is a politician crabstorm ahead.

    I still hope you wont send in the divorcepapers, but consider to stay and in the EU, just with your reasonable reservations to keep your integrity/personality of your countries, as we did in Danmark.
    At our first election we rejected "Maastricht" very close as your UK-elctionresult.
    But then we just made a new election, after hearing the opposition here back home, and we presented this to the “Maastricht” which let us have it. How hard can it be :?:

    Looking at the small 1,8 % overweight, you could consider to do the same, that is a re-election but with reasonable reservations. Not to be confused with a election of the same thing.
    Remember the word, minister, originally means servant, and they have to do what the majority wants them to, also in the EU.

    I would miss the UK-influence here, as we are much alike, Danmark and UK. We are just a little prettier and less querulous 8) .

    Claus C
     
  27. JEFF JOHNSON

    JEFF JOHNSON United Kingdom Subscriber

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    So far no one has mentioned that Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU..

    In my opinion, the English and Welsh vote to leave the EU., will lead to the break up of the UK..
     
  28. spiritburner

    spiritburner Admin

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    & with England & Wales out of the EU & assuming Scotland remains or are re-admitted their largest market will be where?
     
  29. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    What I think, Claus, is that you're being abusive towards me. Personal attacks are uncalled for and contravene forum rules.

    I also think EU = cloud cuckoo land (which is quite appropriate considering the absolute drivel you've just written - 60 seconds of my life I won't get back...) ;) :lol:
     
  30. Claus C

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    I added a quote David - should have done that from the start, sorry.

    Claus C
     

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