NRV lead washers

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by ColinG, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. ColinG

    ColinG United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Guys. can I confirm that NRV washers (Vapalux/Bialaddin) are supposed to be made of lead?
     
  2. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

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    I would think that generally no valve would have lead seals. Simply because they don't seal without a lot of mechanical pressure.
    And even then they deform.
     
  3. Tom Pedersen

    Tom Pedersen Denmark Subscriber

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    @ColinG
    It's been a long time since I've used lead for NRV washers.
    Instead, I make them from Nitrile rubber and they hold up great.
    In addition, the RNV is considerably easier to unscrew.

    Tom
     
  4. Scott D

    Scott D United Kingdom Subscriber

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    I did have a lead washer on the NRV of the Focus 08. Works fine with a Viton replacement though.
     
  5. Nils Stephenson

    Nils Stephenson Founder Member

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    I always use lead for the NRV. No problems with that.
     
  6. Fireexit1

    Fireexit1 United Kingdom Subscriber

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    @ColinG All the ones I have found or replaced on Vapalux/Bialaddin/W&B lanterns have been rubber/viton and I have never found a lead one. 300x onwards.
     
  7. Paul Aslanides

    Paul Aslanides Australia Subscriber

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    Speaking of such, the "Handi" lantern has an NRV with a slightly smaller thread, at 7.5 m/m O.D., than that normally encountered at 7.8 or 7.9 m/m approx., so I'd very much like to obtain some washers 7.5 x 11 m/m in lead and/or in Viton. The smaller size is a much closer fit. Plus another chap here has four Handi's, and he too is having his a battle to extract the valves for servicing. Any ideas, pointers, for some close-fit washers ?Thanks.
     
  8. Fireexit1

    Fireexit1 United Kingdom Subscriber

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    As it is out of view you could trim anything with the right size hole ? Not pretty but it would work.
     
  9. Norman

    Norman United States Subscriber

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    I use a viton O-Ring on most of my NRVs which work very well and it makes it much easier to remove.

    Cheers,
    Norman
     
  10. Fireexit1

    Fireexit1 United Kingdom Subscriber

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    As do Coleman on new NRV/Check valves. I have used o-rings as replacements on those.
     
  11. M.Meijer

    M.Meijer Subscriber

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    I have plenty of lead I could use, but the often resisting-to-extracting of the NRV due to a spread out lead washer made me look for an alternative. I chanced upon a suggestion by BernieDawg - of silent cap fame for stoves - to punch rings out of the plastic lids from yogurt containers and the like. Only to be used once, but cheaper than chips. However, one has to invest in a concentric punch set that might even be more expensive for Britons now (Boehm, France).
    They work, are even acetone resistant , and child's play to remove.
     
  12. Darryl Durdin

    Darryl Durdin Australia Subscriber

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    The fettlebox has NRV refurbish kits with a lead washer, I’ve used them on a number of different lanterns, no issues
     
  13. Paul Aslanides

    Paul Aslanides Australia Subscriber

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    Thank you. Cheers.
     
  14. Mr cod

    Mr cod Subscriber

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    Colin, as far as I am aware vapalux/bialaddin have never used lead as a washer in any of their lamps.
    Regards Ian
     
  15. ROBBO55

    ROBBO55 Subscriber

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    I have plenty of lead and a punch. So lead seals in all of my lanterns.
     
  16. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Pressure stoves (Primus, Optimus etc) have lead washers for sealing their NRVs in the bottom of the pump tube.

    My preference is to use lead for Primus-type NRVs but a good alternative is HDPE plastic used in milk bottles etc.

    The last fettle I did on a Bialaddin the lamp had a rubber washer on the NRV so I replaced it with a viton one from The Fettlebox.

    @Paul Aslanides

    I would use lead for the NRV in the Handi. They are quite easy to make if you’ve got a bit of lead flashing.

    For hard to remove NRVs, half fill the pump tube with Penetrene or similar and leave it for a few days. Put your NRV extractor in a vise so it can’t move, put the tank/pump tube over the extractor in the correct position, and then hold the tank firmly against the extractor and turn unscrew.

    Tony
     
  17. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

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    @all, I was put on the wrong leg with the word seal.
    I thought the part that seals inside the valve not the o-ring that seals on the outside of the valve.
     
  18. ColinG

    ColinG United Kingdom Subscriber

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    OK, I think I've got a good idea of what was used and what it can be replaced with. My only problem is that all of the lanterns I've received have had lead washers! It doesn't matter though as plastic milk container tops are plentiful and easy to cut.

    Thanks guys.
     
  19. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    On the other hand, I don't think I've ever had a Bialaddin / Vapalux which came with a lead washer anywhere. Neither have I ever seen an official seals kit from Halifax with lead washers in them - and I've seen a lot over the past 20 years. They're always rubber of some sort, except the rare red plastic (Catalin?) NRV washers on very early E41s...
     
  20. steerpike451

    steerpike451 United Kingdom Subscriber

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    In the reference library there's an E41 instruction card ; the parts list on the back mentions a lead washer, presumably for the NRV...
     
  21. M.Meijer

    M.Meijer Subscriber

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    So far I have not found a lead washer underneath a W&B non-return valve, including two E41's. Instead, some non-definable fibre or plastic that was deformed by the NRV. Yet I am not surprised a lead one is mentioned in a parts list of an E41, when the best of intentions were proclaimed, but an economic realisation might have made it a thing of the past soon. Perhaps spurred by war requirements?
     
  22. Paul Aslanides

    Paul Aslanides Australia Subscriber

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    When Fettle becomes Battle - Always had great difficulty getting the NRV in the Handi lantern to seal. Finally put a rotary wire brush down into the pump tube, a risky business, and Lo ! loosened and removed the remains of old washers, been in there for years. One lead and one of the quality gasket material, Klingite or somesuch, which did work for a while but has since disintegrated. Peering down into the pump tube with a torch, it's difficult to make out exactly what is down there. Then had to pluck out the bits of detritus with a rod and rag with grease on the end.
    The quaint little Handi NRV, smaller than all my other NRV's, has a chamfered face so that instead of pressing the washer against the face of the pump base, it actually spreads the washer - splays it outwards, i.e. from the inside diamter, radially outwards. A proper pain, because a new lead washer is instantly deformed when the NRV is tightened down. With a thread of 7.5 m/m od there are no suitable lead washers, or punches about. Arrgghh! Couldn't find my lead sheet, so made a washer from annealed copper. Yes, so far it's O.K. Better than lead, I expect. Also put in a new NRV kit. The old pip was without the little brass cup, quite good, easier to handle. The young fella who serviced this Handi many years ago, twice, has since moved on to other pastures, probably the meatworks, where his talents as a butcher would be more appreciated.
    Handi Lantern Detritus.jpg

    Handi Old Pip.jpg
     
  23. podbros

    podbros United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Well done on the fettle, Paul and thanks for sharing!

    Sometimes it's little tips like this that can really help :thumbup:
     
  24. Paul Aslanides

    Paul Aslanides Australia Subscriber

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    Thanks. I thought the wire brush trick rather barbaric, but it was a last resort, since nothing would seal there had to be something wrong. I shall cut some more annealed copper washers, for standby's. Not as soft as lead.
     
  25. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Sounds more like Klingon if you ask me... ;) :lol:
     
  26. Paul Aslanides

    Paul Aslanides Australia Subscriber

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    Ha, Ha. Far out.
     
  27. MYN

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    Lead washers are fine. So are HDPE ones. HDPE is available almost everywhere as the material of choice for making lubricant and chemical containers. They are resistant to all organic solvents I know of, most acids and alkalis. You can easily punch the washers out of these. Not as heat resistant as lead but these are pretty resilient and can be reused over and again.
    Another excellent material is hard PTFE sheet(not the Teflon tape) but is relatively expensive. They are resistant to almost any known chemical, soft enough to deform to the required shape and can be re-used many times over. Unlike rubbers and elastomers, they are quite tear-resistant.
     
  28. Paul Aslanides

    Paul Aslanides Australia Subscriber

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    @MYN Thank you. HDPE washers are high on my next shopping list.
     
  29. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    @Paul Aslanides

    Australian plastic milk bottles are made from HDPE. They make good washers.

    For a thicker HDPE washer, use an ice cream container.


    Cheers

    Tony
     
  30. Sedgman

    Sedgman Subscriber

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    Simple; lead washer out , lead washer in.

    Problem is, sometimes trying to figure out if the lead washer is still affixed to the bottom of the pump tube. If it is, and you don't realise it, then it reduces the amount of thread left for engaging. The NRV extraction method outlined by @Tony Press works well for difficult ones. I find an initial test of the extraction tool to see how much play exists, useful. Too much play, i.e., a bad fit and you damage the head of the NRV. I tolerate about 15 degrees and no more. I have a series of removal tools, many just home made, to get the 'perfect or at least close' fit.

    I've only ever stuffed it (removing the NRV) up once by too much force (ripping the pump assembly from the fount) and knowing what is a reasonable maximum force to apply is worth knowing too.

    Ah the joys.
     

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