Petromax 827/250cp and 829/500cp

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by Bryan, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. Bryan United States

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    Hi I’m a newbie..

    So trying to be a good neighbor I volunteered to restore these lanterns that belonged to her father 30 years ago. I bought the rebuild kits through Amazon and carefully rebuilt them. For the life of me I can’t build any pressure in the fuel tanks to get them to work. I’m $100 into the project and feeling like an idiot.

    Where should I look?

    upload_2019-8-21_18-18-31.jpeg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2019
  2. george

    george United States Subscriber

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    Make sure the tank cap it tight and the little release screw on the tank cap is tight. Make sure the leather pump is oiled. Do you have instructions for lighting the lanterns? Remember, these are kerosene fueled not gasoline or camp fuel.
     
  3. Bryan United States

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    Using kerosine, filled to just below the pressure gauge level.

    Can’t seem to build pressure.
     
  4. Andrew T

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    Did you replace the rubber pip in the non return valve ( NRV).
     
  5. phaedrus42

    phaedrus42 Subscriber

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    First question, is the pump plunger making pressure in the pump tube?
    If it is, then is the pressure going through the NRV into the fount?
    Check that first and show a pic of how the pump plunger leather cup is fitted.
    Then we can look at other possible causes step-by-step.
     
  6. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

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    What is a rebuild kit ?
    Are you in anyway familiar with these kerosene lanterns ?
    What did you do ?
    Why did you do that ?
    Did you look for a manual and read it ?
     
  7. Bryan United States

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    I'll answer all the questions I can here - and guys, I appreciate your engagement. I somehow grew up knowing absolutely nothing about German kerosene lanterns - German motorcycles yes, but lanterns no.

    Rebuild kits were purchased from the manufacturer Britelyt - specific kits for each model for $23.99 each. I figured I'd start fresh since these lanterns had been sitting on a garage shelf undisturbed since the mid-1980s. There was fuel in each.

    I followed the rebuild procedure published by Jan Moeller in 2008. Restoration of a PETROMAX 829 Lantern

    I did replace the rubber pip on the valve at the bottom of the pump tube, and replaced the leather seal - which I recall was included in one rebuild kit, but not the other.

    I was working on them last night, the 250CP model did get a little pressure after 50 pump strokes, the 500cp model seemed not to get any pressure - the pump felt like the valve wasn't permitting any air into the tank. Is this information helpful?

    Thanks again -

    Bryan
     
  8. JEFF JOHNSON

    JEFF JOHNSON United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Welcome aboard!:thumbup:

    Did you put new seals in the filler caps/pressure gauges?
     
  9. phaedrus42

    phaedrus42 Subscriber

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    What parts were included in the rebuild kits?
     
  10. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

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    @Bryan, sory to ask but I don't know your background: do you understand how these petromax style lanterns work ?

    If you don't get pressure in the tank you shouls more or less know why: there areonlt two components involved: the pump leather manchet wich seals in the tube and the valve at the bottom of the pumpshaft.
    Did ypu pump with kerosene in the tank ?
    Did you do a water dunk test for leaks like you would do with a tube ? In this case without kerosene.
     
  11. Bryan United States

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    500CP / BriteLyt Petromax Parts Kit-Part# 1020-2-500CP – Britelyt
    This was essentially the same kit for both lanterns.
    I do understand the basics, preheat the upper components. Permit the pressurized fuel to enter the heated upper components and vaporize, it should ignite the mantle and we’re in business after I turn the knob to open?
    The models I have do not have the soft ignition pan option.
    I’ve not tried the dunk test, I assume I drain all fuel out first? How far do I submerse the lamp?
    Bryan
     
  12. Hanzo

    Hanzo Subscriber

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    Bryan

    I am not much of a fettler and lost my battle with P'Max mainternance:lol: , however the first thing to change when fixing an older P'Max that has sat is the NRV, part #10 I think. I notice to that the parts kit you bought from Brylite didn't include one. Sounds like the NRV is blocked and air can't get into the tank. Removing an NRV may mean WD40 sprayed on it to loosen it up and then a long heavy screw driver to get it out, NRV's can be stubborn to get out though.

    I failed at fixing lanterns BUT the members here are really experts, listen well and your lanterns will get running.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  13. phaedrus42

    phaedrus42 Subscriber

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    The kit in the link is for a o-ring plunger type pump. The lanterns you have must use a leather cup for the pump. Did you use leather pump cups or did you fit o-rings to the pump plungers?
     
  14. paparazi

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    This shouldn't be at all difficult .. really.
    Its just a matter of ensuring everything is sealing, the pump itself is creating pressure and the non return valve is opening every time you pump the plunger.
    1: Pressure gauge is screwed in and sealing, air bleed off screw (on the gauge) is closed.
    Rapid start seal is seated and sealing.
    Pointer on control valve lined up and closed.
    2: Every time you pump, you should feel a resistance (indicating that the pump cup/seal is flaring and sealing in the pump tube) and that you can feel/hear the none return valve opening in the last third of the pump stroke.
    That the pump handle doesn't rise on its own (indicating air pressure escaping back up the pump tube which means the none return valve or washer are not sealing correctly)
    3:That no air is escaping out of the quick start valve.
    So the questions are: is it creating pressure and if it is, where is it escaping and if not, why not.

    Martin
     
  15. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

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    First on an empty tank you can pump a lot before you get any pressure inside.
    So if you have no air leaks (dunktest, empty, whole under part) there remain two options: you pump air in but it leaks out via the pump valve (nrv) which with a filled tank will fload your table, other one is that your pump seal, cup/ring, doesn't pump at all. Your old olanterns have a leather cup, oil it massage it smooth and it will pump.

    The pressure indicator is just that an indicator, you can test it with a gas filler can, the one to fill gas fire lighters. They opperate on 2bar and just put the can on the little hole under the indicator, then it should say 2bar.
    Off coarse don't do this in home ! but somewhere outside. Just in case.
     
  16. Bryan United States

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    Hi folks,

    Here’s what I’ve done. And now I’m getting pressure!

    I got it up to one bar- full tank, 60 or so strokes. Now I’ll see if it holds pressure?

    I assembled the lantern but the quick start wouldn’t go. I disassembled it and tried to clean the screen at the bottom of the quick start tube with solvent and a blast of compressed air.

    Still working on it.
     
  17. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

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    If you dare: the small filter is detachable. But you can mangle the tube easily. The tube and filter can be removed but have very fine threads. If you don't get any fuel out or small amount, you have to clean the tube. Depending on what fuel is used it can oxidise the tube inside and block it.
    Of coarse you checked and cleaned the air holes (2 or 4) in the vaporiser part of the rapid pre heater :content: and the jet itself.
     
  18. Bryan United States

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    Yes.

    I did the dunk test - a few bubbles from the pressure gauge and a little bit of water intruded behind the glass

    Re the quick start - and neither of these have the soft start tray. I did try and clean that tiny screen at the base of the tube, as noted with a solvent and compressed air. How do I clean the other holes in the vaporiser? (Apologies for dumb questions)
     
  19. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

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    Well I will not sound rude but use the search on this forum and look for rapid pre heater.
    You are not the first one which thses questions and the answers will be the same as for all the others before you.
     
  20. phaedrus42

    phaedrus42 Subscriber

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    I would recommend fitting the standard Petromax alcohol preheat cup to both lanterns. The novelty of the rapid start quickly wears off and you will need a method of gently pre-heating when fitting new mantles. To my knowledge the 829 Rapid had an alcohol cup factory fitted. The 827 may not have had one but it is a good idea anyway.
     
  21. Bryan United States

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    Thanks Phil, and Wim I'll do so.

    The sad reality is that by the time I get these running I can promise you that my non-mechanical neighbor will never use them.

    Sigh.
     
  22. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

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    @Bryan, you always can propose her to light the lanterns for her every weekend to remember her father ....
     
  23. Bryan United States

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    Hahaha Wim. You are very intuitive.
     
  24. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

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    @Bryan welcome aboard from Queensland Australia.
    Looks like you are getting it under control, well done.
    Cheers
    Pete
     
  25. Bryan United States

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    Hi Pete - I’ll post pictures when I get them working!

    Thanks everyone

    Bryan
     

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