Possibly a Kayen Vase Lamp - Very Rare

Discussion in 'Mystery Lamps' started by Kiwiboy00, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Kiwiboy00

    Kiwiboy00 Subscriber

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    I thought this was a VL1 but was wrong, its an Even Rarer Vase Lamp called a Kayen, very little is known about these Scarce Vase Lamps. (Apparently Jim Dick was one of the few to have owned one)

    HISTORY: This Very Rare Kayen Vase Lamp was brought from Jim Dicks Private Collection. These lamps are an Aussie copy of the Tilley VL1, this one was possible made in the NETTLEFOLD factory in Melbourne, who was working in collaboration with KOPSEN in Sydney, to produce Tilley copies when they could not be imported from England due to WW2.

    The tank is in nice condition and has been well looked after, i have fitted new seals along with a new old stock genuine 169 Tilley vaporiser.

    The lamp also comes with the original brass insert for a vase. Also the lamp comes with a beautiful hand made vase thats not original, made from Australian wood.

    Its the only Kayen Vase Lamp that copied the VL1 that i have ever seen, also NOT many lantern collectors have seen these to date, even the bottom is different to the VL1, and NO its not a Kite Lamp or knock off.

    I’ve had few experts look into this before posting, open to others thoughts. Note this lamp has no pressure nipple.

    What makes this Kayen different from the VL1 tank is that both Tilley Pumps & Kayen fit.

    Regards
    Darren


    72AE3B9F-1C25-4FD3-B1BA-91598361C832.jpeg EB1DB463-5502-4B75-8D23-7801F96E94F9.jpeg 4E533825-A029-4E5D-AEDB-645028AB8E24.jpeg 7EAC4CA1-D3C4-45FD-B6FC-AFB62C0BC275.jpeg B0167C91-20C2-44EC-86BE-39F36618BBFE.jpeg C3F436B9-B0E8-40F4-82E8-DC6EE193C741.jpeg EC53BBFD-A526-4BDD-B2D8-896FBEA1EAA1.jpeg 1D14DE0A-AB72-4DB1-9E62-C5B06ABC9BEB.jpeg 032B518B-BCDD-407A-A430-29E8F8293E4B.jpeg 02BA5045-7D2F-4A62-B46A-4D9352649A28.jpeg F7B94761-91A1-445F-9E6F-5FD202CCA0D5.jpeg C4FDBDD2-E38B-4147-A055-D101F687C30A.jpeg E43F51B8-E20A-4255-87DB-FA15594FB16E.jpeg 2ED27BFD-FD45-4266-9E2F-329F6BCD46EE.jpeg 4300D1E3-E4CA-43B4-A35F-F16373F0B617.jpeg 8A366AFB-8BBE-4649-8FBE-90AF72319FCA.jpeg 53E34E31-A66F-476B-A043-3B651176FDFB.jpeg 7F3E2479-8FF8-48D8-82C7-81C14F639732.jpeg 8D4C3771-FA0F-4AD1-B0AC-1E6518C117D4.jpeg
     
  2. BigStevie

    BigStevie United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Superb! Thanks for sharing Darren.
     
  3. plantpot

    plantpot United Kingdom Subscriber

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    That's a lovely looking lamp. I have never seen a vase lamp before

    I wonder why they made the tanks so tall I would have thought it would be a bit unstable. But all that aside, its a very elegant piece.
     
  4. Jean J

    Jean J Subscriber

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    So does anyone know what the original Kayen vase was made of, is there anything in print? The tank looks in every way like the Tilley VL one. Are there any old adverts showing this lamp?
     
  5. Kiwiboy00

    Kiwiboy00 Subscriber

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    Thank you for the kind comments, unfortunately I can’t find any photos or information about this only from a few experts who collect Rare Lamps. It must of been special to be in Jim Dicks Collection. It has no pressure nipple, has a different base as seen, and both tilley/Kayen fit it.

    I was hoping someone could tell me more about it, its in great shape, but the wife is forcing me sell a lot of my lamps due to room, so thats why i listed it on ebay. Every expert lamp person I’ve spoken to has heard about Kayen copying Tilleys VL1 hence no pressure tip and the interchangeable parts/pump, but has never seen one in real life as they are very scarce.

    Unfortunately that’s all the information I know.

    Regards
    Darren
     
  6. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

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    That’s a very nice lamp. Thank you for sharing and with the excellent detailed photos.
    And Maaate! It’s time to get a bigger home ........
    Cheers
    Pete
     
  7. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    Well we can certainly agree it is not Tilley but having discussed this with a couple of guys I am not convinced it is Kayen either. Several of us knew Jim pretty well when he was actively researching Tilley and he never mentioned this to anyone that I am aware of. That alone rings alarm bells because if Jim had thought it was correct he would surely have told us. We have price lists for Kayen from 1946 to 1951 and there is no mention of a vase lamp and if they sold one it would have to be there. It is always possible I am wrong of course, it won't be the first time that's happened but right now I believe this is a reproduction vase lamp tank and never a production lamp. It is perhaps possible it was a prototype and never made because of the cost and decling sales of table lamps in general but I believe it more likely to be an amateur build.

    Still an awesome lamp to have though.

    ::Neil::
     
  8. Kiwiboy00

    Kiwiboy00 Subscriber

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    Hi Neil, thankyou for your feedback and thoughts, I personally think its a prototype made by Kayen only due to both Tilley & Kayen parts fitting and interchangeable. Im far from experienced but its fitting with the lack of information and interchangeable Tilley/Kayen parts. Ohhh its also very heavy and built like a tank with a lot of care taken when made, its well built and very solid.

    I love this forum, you guys are great and full of knowledgeable information. Thankyou :-)

    Kind Regards
    Darren
     
  9. Kiwiboy00

    Kiwiboy00 Subscriber

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    New home/wife now thats a better idea lol. Im Gold Coast so its quite expensive to upgrade both house & wife lol.
     
  10. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

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  11. Carlsson

    Carlsson Sweden Admin/Founder Member

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    Well, then. If it's not certain it's a genuine Kayen, I assume it's best to move it out from the Kayen gallery.
    I put it in "Mystery lamps" for now, but it's easy to move to another place. I don't feel "Frankies" is correct, since we don't know if it's a thing put together by some clever person, even if it's a possibility.
     
  12. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    I saw this tank on 2 March 2019, before it was sold (photo below).

    I am not convinced it is a Kayen, nor a Kayen prototype.

    My reasons for this are:

    1. As per what Neil (@Mackburner ) said above.
    2. There are parts on the lamp are post 2 March 2019.
    3. There is no paperwork I've seen, and paperwork that @Anthony has posted in the Reference Library, that identifies a vase lamp.

    Jim's extensive collection had in it many reproduction parts, such as Kayen/Tilley hoods, and well engineered accessories such as vapouriser extenders, cage extenders, and heater mantles and other well-made brass fittings. I know positively that at least a fair proportion of these were made in Australia. (I am in possession of some of these, and will get around to posting sooner or later).

    The photos below are of relatively poor quality as they are cut from photos of a wider perspective, and not portraits of the VL.

    IMG_2128.jpg

    IMG_2130.jpg



    I had been in discussion about this lantern in both the thread here: Tilley VL1 question & Burner question, and in private conversation.


    Cheers

    Tony
     
  13. Kiwiboy00

    Kiwiboy00 Subscriber

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    Thankyou Tony for your in-depth reply, let me ask you the following questions please. If its coustom made why was it fitted with a Kayen Pump witch is very likely to be Nettlefold manufactured ? When I received the Vase Lamp it had a Kayen Cock & Kayen pump, i am mystified that an eminent collector like Jim would keep a Mongrel Brass Lamp made to copy a Tilley VL1 fitted with a genuine Kayen Pump & Cock with out some in-depth knowledge of its origin.

    Jim may not have shared his extnisive knowledge for personal reasons, and i find it hard to except that he would keep this lamp if it had no collectible value, given the exquisite copper Kayens that he kept in his bedroom.

    I have read many threads on the website concerning another Australian lamp made in Sydney called the Quirks Victory where nobody seems to be able to identify what glass & top came out on these lamps as original.

    Could this lamp be another one such as this ?

    Kind Regards
    Darren
     
  14. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    @Kiwiboy00

    Your post requires a very detailed response. I will respond tomorrow, as I am just back from overseas.

    In the meantime, I think there are ethical questions about your eBay listing that you may wish to consider.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  15. Kiwiboy00

    Kiwiboy00 Subscriber

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    Tony, I have taken onboard what you said about ethical, so in response i have updated my eBAY listing. Looking forward to reading your in-depth reply regarding this mystery lamp that Jim once had.

    Kind Regards
    Darren
     
  16. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    The Victory lamp is a bracket type and used an AGM burner and globe. So we know exactly what they were fitted with. The burner is the AGM Instantaneous and the globe is AGM part 1344.. ::Neil::

    !!Victory lamp.jpg !!AGM inst burner.jpg !!AGM 1344 globes.jpg
     
  17. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    @Mackburner

    When I visited you recently, I saw a glass on one of your lamps that looks very much like one of the Quirk’s. The bloke with me commented to me about it looking like a Quirk’s as well.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
  18. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Darren

    I am not trying to prove it’s not a Kayen. The absence of proof is not the proof of absence. In other words, I can’t prove it’s not Kayen - and at this stage no one can. If it turns out that it was made for Nettlefold or Kopsen, I’d be as pleased as Punch.

    I can only point out those things that make me think it is premature to say it is a Kayen, or to infer it is likely to be a Kayen.

    1. The lantern, when I saw it on 2 March 2019, was as seen in my photos above. Many other fine lamps of Jim’s were complete and obviously had been proudly presented and displayed. This one was not.

    2. I won’t repeat what I and others have said above, except to say that those who worked with Jim in his comprehensive study of Tilley don’t know of this lamp as a Kayen.

    3. You say that it takes both Kayen and Tilley pumps as an indication of provenance. My Australian-made Stormaster lantern takes both pumps.

    4. You ask “why was it fitted with a Kayen pump”? I can’t answer that because I don’t know, but Jim had many, many Tilley and Kayen spare parts in his collection, including ‘new old stock’.

    5. You said “i am mystified that an eminent collector like Jim would keep a Mongrel Brass Lamp made to copy a Tilley VL1 fitted with a genuine Kayen Pump & Cock with out some in-depth knowledge of its origin”.

    I am not so presumptuous to presume anything about Jim or his collection, except to say that I saw, in detail, a great proportion of it. As have others. Jim had a fine collection, and it included reproduction.

    I know that Jim has a complete Tilley VL1 with original vase.

    At this point in time, given there is no evidence that Kayen ever made a vase lamp, I would assume that this vase lamp is a reproduction.

    Here's another shot of the lamp on 2 March 2019:
    IMG_2100.jpg

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  19. Matthew92

    Matthew92 Subscriber

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    In this picture from the other thread, the top of the riser where the cock screws in is machined flat. Tilley as far as I know always cuts grooves in that surface where the washer could bite into. I was just wondering if Kayen lamps usually had a similar feature?

    2430438F-90E9-4FFA-8471-85F9D47C01F2.jpeg
     
  20. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Thanks, Matthew. I'll check.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  21. Kiwiboy00

    Kiwiboy00 Subscriber

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    Thank you Neil & Tony for making things a lot clearer, i understand and respect where your coming from. Your knowledge & experience regarding pressure lamps has always been an amazing help.

    Im very new to pressure lamps, sorry if i came across defensive or challenging in the above advice that was given to me.

    Its a great forum packed full of information, thank you everyone for taking the time to respond to my questions about this vase lamp, your input and research is very much appreciated.

    Kind Regards
    Darren
     
  22. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    I have a few globes like this. Some are American gas globes and there are a few Primus as well. Certainly none came from Aus and none from any AGM lamps either.

    It is interesting that sometimes, as with this Vase lamp, the initial reaction is a big NO. Then I look at the detail to see why my instinct reacts like that. Tony and I seem to have the same reservations here which means I am not totally out of step. Be nice to prove it was a factory Kayen; maybe a protype or just an excercise to assess production costs. Odd that there is no pressure tit though and that makes me lean rather towards a home made repro. ::Neil::
     
  23. JEFF JOHNSON

    JEFF JOHNSON United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Perhaps Jim Dick should be contacted.
     
  24. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Neil

    The globe I was referring was this one:

    C5DAD8B3-C76C-49FA-B08A-00974042F804.jpeg


    It looked to me, from memory, similar to the one on my Quirk’s:

    F68E4E75-5BF9-4A90-99DD-884DD6B730C4.jpeg


    Bernie and I were discussing that the globe on my Quirk’s is similar to globes that appear on Australian Wizard lamps. Looking more closely at the photo of your lamp, I’m not sure the globe on my Quirk’s has a pronounced enough ‘lip’ to take a hanging fitting.

    Cheers

    Tony

    @Mackburner
     
  25. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    Oh I see. That is a standard Nagel Chase globe. and the fitter is 6 inches with a quite deep lip which makes it NC globe No 50. Here are all the NC globes from the 1923 catalogue. They don't show the frosting well but the illustrations of the lamps in the same catalogue do show the scalloped design. Wizard are kinda NC style lamps and perhaps might be considered as Australian NC product so not really a surprise to see an NC type globe on another Aus lamp. ::Neil::

    !!NC globes-1923.jpg
     
  26. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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    Neil, Surely you mean globe No. 39 ?

    Henry.
     
  27. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    Ah yes. I was looking at the wrong pendant in the catalogue. The 50 fits on the model 173 600cp version but my pendant is a model 150 300cp so you are right and the globe is part 39. Same as, just different sizes. ::Neil::
     

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