Pre 53 Austramax " Norman "

Discussion in 'Norman' started by Colin M, Apr 9, 2012.

  1. Colin M

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    Why " Norman " who knows. Pre 53, Hex Pressure Release screw but tend to think it's a bit suss. Interestingly has 2 Inlet points on the Fount. Left & Right hand Lantern?

    In any case just another 3/300

    1333971854-Norman_1.jpg 1333971870-Norman_2.jpg 1333971878-Norman_3.jpg 1333971897-Norman_4.jpg


    Colin
     
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  2. Nils Stephenson

    Nils Stephenson Founder Member

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    Never seen a "Norman" before (or even heard of one). Could be a rebadge for some company, but can't think of anything with that name. Probably something along the same line as the later "Cougar" branded Austramax.

    I've seen the 'double inlet' tanks before. If I remember correctly they are on the 2/300 or the early 3/300. This fits in with the type of pump collar and the control wheel. I agree with you that the pressure release screw looks sus. The hood looks like a later replacement as well.

    All in all a very interesting lantern.
     
  3. JEFF JOHNSON

    JEFF JOHNSON United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Neat lantern! :thumbup:
     
  4. Colin M

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    Still looking for the period hood, best I had to complete lantern
     
  5. Matty

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    A good bet was because Norman Grummet owned Austramax.
     
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  6. Matty

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    Funny thing.

    I'd not heard of the Austramax Norman until I saw this topic a few minutes ago.

    After I made my previous post it dawned on me I'd seen the lamp somewhere before. Then I remembered I'd seen a drawing in Trove. When I'd seen the drawing months ago I assumed the artist just drew the Austramax badly.

    Not so it seems. It now gives me hope that the straight glass very early Austramaxs' I've seen are not bad drawings.


    Morning Bulletin (Rockhampton, Qld. : 1878 - 1954)

    14th April 1945.



    1448005139-norman.jpg
     
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  7. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    I have had a Norman lantern in the PLC for many years. Albert White sent me this image with the note that the support Collar was stamped "NORMAN" He did not send me any other images but he did tell me it had the second plugged opening in the tank.

    1448022174-__Norman_A_White.jpg
     
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  8. Nils Stephenson

    Nils Stephenson Founder Member

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    The picture used in the add in Matty's post is obviously a Coleman, so they used whatever picture was handy.

    The Norman certainly appears to be either a late 2/300 or early 3/300. Is there any stamping on the tank of the ones we know about?
     
  9. Matty

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    Nils,

    Right, I see.

    Does the shape of Collins' Norman and Neils' Norman look the same to you?

    Neils' to me looks Austramax but Collins' looks higher with less steeped slopes on the sides. Or do I need my glasses checked?

    Getting it so badly wrong with the Coleman drawing probably means the early Austramax drawings I've seen with the straight globes are incorrect too.
     
  10. Tony Press

    Tony Press Antarctica Subscriber

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    At least some of the early Austramax came with straight-sided mica globes.

    The latest production also has straight-sided glass globes.

    Like Matty, I'd always assumed that the "Norman" was eponymous.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  11. Matty

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    The following picture is the first Austramax lamp I can find advertised. The earliest date I can find for Austramax is June 1940.

    I can only find advertisements for Austramax by the Estee Trading Co PTY LTD in the early years of Austramax.

    Within a couple of years there was a company called Estco-Austramax. I assume that Estco was the Estee Trading Co.

    I've seen advertisements to 1951/52 for a lamp called The Norman Lamp. I don't know if that is the Austramax Norman lamp.

    Since the disaster of showing the Coleman lamp used in an Austramax ad, I don't know if this lamp is a true representation of an Austramax.

    I couldn't for the life of me get the image as a whole so here is the link.

    Advertising - The Horsham Times (Vic. : 1882 - 1954) - 28 Jan 1941
     
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  12. Matty

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    I'm surprised such language is tolerated on this forum :)
     
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  13. Tony Press

    Tony Press Antarctica Subscriber

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    Matty

    When you say the "earliest date" is June 1940 is that an ad for a lamp, or a reference to the Company?

    Tony
     
  14. Matty

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    Both Tony.

    I believe I have concrete evidence of the Austramax Factory beginning life at 153 Melville Rd W Brunswick.

    In 1930 there was a company formed called Hi Power Engineering Co Pty. Norman J Grummet was a subscriber to that company according to records.

    From 1930, Hi Power Enginnering advertised their address as 153 Melville Rd W Brunswick. It was an engineering factory.

    The last time Hi Powered Engineering advertised was June 1940. It was June 1940 the first Austramax ads appeared and I suspect, that is the true date that Austramax began selling their lamps.

    Norman J Grummet being a subscriber to Hi Powered Engineering and then the owner of Austramax leads to one conclusion IMO.

    Austramax began life at 153 Melville Rd W Brunswick and it remains there today.
     
  15. Tony Press

    Tony Press Antarctica Subscriber

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    Matty

    Good stuff! Now the earliest Austramax lantern ad. I've seen is December 1940. It would be good to post the earlier one.

    Mackburner will have to amend his (excellent) book again...

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  16. Matty

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  17. Nils Stephenson

    Nils Stephenson Founder Member

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    It looks more like the picture of Collin's is a bit stretched. I'm pretty sure they are the same. The Norman does appear to be the same as the Austramax of the time.

    We do have an example of the earliest Austramax here in the gallery. Another one of Collin's lamps.
     
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  18. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    Looks like this. ::Neil::

    1448372245-__Austramax_1941-01-28.jpg
     
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  19. Tony Press

    Tony Press Antarctica Subscriber

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    Now the interesting thing about that illustration of the Austramax in Macburner's above post is that it appears to have a long pressure release screw in the filler cap.

    I have an old Austramax with a long screw like that. I'd always thought it was a aftermarket replacement from something else.

    I will put my old 2/300s through a bit of o light cleanup this weekend and post them in the gallery, with some comparison shots.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  20. Matty

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    Nils,

    I think that link of Colins highlights the problems a site such as CPL has.

    As a research tool this site is becoming a bit of a disaster.

    I find it terribly difficult to find information on this site as it's all over the place.

    Then, if you find a topic such as Colins', you think you've hit the jackpot. But. Information in the title (year) and speculation about Austramax is wrong.

    Now don't get me wrong, I realise the information posted on this site is done in good faith and was written at a time when the information was thought to be correct.

    Colin, whom I've never met nor spoken to, has demonstrated time and time again, through his posts and his lamps that he is one of the more knowledgeable lamp collectors out there.

    I have time and time and time... again read information on this site that is contradictory. That doesn't surprise me as information evolves and as new information comes to light it's posted.

    The problem is, that newer information is normally posted separately, from older information, and can get lost in the maddening crowd.

    One thing that would be impossible to do is go around and correct all out dated statements. The problem is, those outdated statements remain and if I as a researcher, on a particular lamp, find the outdated information and not the latest, the site is doing me an injustice.

    I think there is a simple solution to the problem though it would take some work.

    It's doubtful that Ross and Christer would like to undertake my proposal by themselves. I suggest that the founding members consider my proposal, and volunteer to help, i.e. many hand make light work.

    I suggest that a sticky is placed in sections of the site where it's felt it's needed.

    For instance, Location: Forum Index » Classic Pressure Lamps » The Lamp Reference Gallery » America » Akron Diamond. A sticky, outlining a brief known history of Akron Diamond, known to this point, could be placed as the first topic in that gallery.

    A brief history, known to this point, could be placed in ONE, of each of the models of lamps on display.

    That way as a researcher of a particular lamp I can go to the gallery, looking for information on say a KL80. The first KL80 I would see, would have a sticky with information about the KL80. That sticky would state the year the lamps commenced, the year they finished and possibly links to the next model in line etc.

    Any time new information comes to light, that supercedes what was once thought, it can be easily updated.

    Each founder member, if they wish to participate, would be able to select lamps in a category of their interest. You for instance, would possibly like to work on Australian and Swedish lamps, if you were interested enough to volunteer.

    Of course you could call upon other members that you think can help you get the most updated information possible. In some cases the stickies may never need be changed.

    Nothing about the site needs to change. Everything remains as is that posted. In fact it would be good to be able to read the posts knowing no matter what you read you have the safety net of being able to easily find the latest known information in the stickies.

    In fact, the evolution of lamp knowledge would be right in front of you.
     
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  21. Tony Press

    Tony Press Antarctica Subscriber

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    Matty

    The issue that you raise is common to all research.

    The researcher has the responsibility to evaluate the quality of the information; and, as you say, knowledge evolves.

    It would not be appropriate to "correct" someone else's information, in text. The appropriate way of correction is to make a subsequent comment/correction pointing out the error, or to write a "review" of the information sorting the wheat from the chaff - as you have done yourself.

    There is a place to do this, and it is in the Reference Library; and for particular pieces of research, at the start of the Reference Gallery topic category.

    As you suggest, a sticky is one way of getting stuff in one place.

    What we are doing here is a bit like "peer review" in science and research: other knowledgable people will (?should) correct errors as they arise.

    I actually don't find the site difficult to navigate or retrieve information from. When I've had an error pointed out to me it's usually that I didn't pay enough attention! Or that it was new information.

    Cheers

    Tony

    Ps Did you you find the older (oldest?) Austramax add from June 1940?
     
  22. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    Yes the reference gallery is the right place for such works.

    One thing we researchers know only too well is that once you put stuff in writing it is out there to be criticised and some of what we write will be called into question or just proved wrong. Tends to be ego bruising at times but that has to be endured in the pursuit of the truth. When it comes to company histories life gets complicated because the companies were complex and evolving organisations. At over 50 years working out who owned what or who made what is not always easy to determine and we tend to go with assumptions based on what we see and read. Then the courageous amongst us write a history and publish it. ::Neil::
     
  23. Matty

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    Neil,

    Personally, I think the courage it takes to present research, is most definitely what is needed.

    To have that research disproved should not, IMO, bruise the ego. Someone has to put something out there. If that starts discussion and eventually gets to the truth I don't think the original theorist should be embarrassed, they should be applauded.

    I heard a scientist say it was just as exciting to be proved wrong as it was to be proved right as the truth had been achieved.

    Tony,

    There isn't a hell of a lot in that reference gallery.

    Most answers are given to questions asked on the forum. That's where most of the knowledge in this forum is dispersed.

    I don't subscribe to correcting what has already been written Tony. I thought I made that clear.

    You, as a 40 year researcher, may find what you need when you need it - then know what you are reading is factual, I can't.
     
  24. Tony Press

    Tony Press Antarctica Subscriber

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    You're right, in a way, Matty.

    One of the things about research, is that it requires a certain amount of scepticism (in the true sense of the word - not how it's been hijacked in recent years). By that I mean if you read or hear a certain "fact", the first thing you ask yourself is how good is it and how reliable is the source. You tend to create a hierarchy of filters: for example: is it in print; where was it published; is there direct evidence (a photo etc); how much information is there to triangulate on the fact.

    Using these kind of filters is not disrespectful of the source. In the early stages of assembling information, sometimes the only information that's available is scant and often contradictory (until all the bits of the jigsaw are put together).

    Another thing, which Macburner commented on, is that whatever you write you should expect, and be open to, it being challenged (in a polite way) - especially in the early days of assembling information.

    One of the great things about CPL and CSS is that the environment encourages its members to share information. While this information tends to be scattered, it is contained in the forums somewhere. If I can't find it, and I write something, someone else is sure to correct me or add the information.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  25. Matty

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    Exactly.

    My point about the stickies is that's been done as up to date on the available information there is.Put there in place by people you respect and trust.

    Stickies cannot be altered by members of the site. It's not like I can go and just change things around or add what I think is correct or should be in there.

    Admin are the only ones that can alter a sticky.

    The information placed in a sticky should only be done by corroborating Founder Members.

    If new information is come upon, a member would need to present that information, and have the Founder Members decide if the information is of sufficient quality to warrant a change to an existing sticky.

    I also believe having those stickies will encourage those with information to come foward and say hey "That's not quite right - here is the proof"

    They may have done so previously in posts to topics but like I said, it can get lost in the maddening crowd.

    I don't expect anyone to think my idea has merit. Again, if ideas aren't put out there....
     
  26. kero-scene

    kero-scene Australia Subscriber

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    Hi Mathy,

    It's a valid topic for discussion, esp. considering the existence of the CSS and ccf sites.

    interesting that Wikipedia has not been of interest to date. A quick search shows there is a page on Tilley with almost no info, and no pages for either Gloria or Austramax. I didn't search further. It is a good forum that any of us can use and does not place a further work load on the cpl founders.
     
  27. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Well, Matty rubbished Wikipedia the other day, despite it being compiled in almost exactly the way he wants knowledge presented here. 8)

    It seems to me that these proposed 'stickies' would find a better home on Wikipedia than on CPL, given that the membership here is only part of the wider lamping community. A shining example of that would be Jim Dick but there are many others.

    Anyway, just sayin'... 8)
     
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  28. Tony Press

    Tony Press Antarctica Subscriber

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    Thanks, David

    What Matty is proposing is far better suited to
    Wikipedia than a humble collectors' forum.

    Besides, the admin duties for a small site like this would be onerous.

    Tony
     
  29. Matty

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    David,

    Rather than use language like I rubbished wikipedia it would probably be better to say that I said it was like a newspaper, don't believe everything you read in it, without double checking.

    Tony, no problems if you and the likes of david think writing a sticky stating this lamp was produced from 1920 to 1940 with 3 variations = wiki, I withdraw my suggestion.

    It's hard to try anything around here without getting an uppercut.
     
  30. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    Tony is quite right about how we look at evidence. We are always making an assessment on just how reliable or truthful any given information might be. It is the reason for the latin below.

    I am always more interested in the truth than being right so being proved wrong with better evidence is never a problem and in fact is always welcome. This is where the researcher learns to forget about ego and seek truth. Takes a while to realise that contradiction is not personal but only a different version of the truth. So when someone tells me I am wrong I don't get annoyed I just say "Prove it" and with proof I will then say "Thank you". ::Neil::
     

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