Tilley Pork pie problem

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by malcolm race, Jan 12, 2021 at 9:21 PM.

  1. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    A few years ago I bought a 246 pork pie fount & cage, complete with cock & vapouriser. Over 2020 due to looking at lockdown projects I’ve been acquiring the missing parts. Today I started to put it all together, to test before a full renovation. I changed the pump washers and give it a go. I got a good flow of air from the vapouriser so thought that’s fine. As I’d just been cleaning some of my bird feeders, I still had a sink full of water in the garage, so unusually for me I did a dunk test. To my amazement and indeed horror I had an air leak from one of the frame holder studs!
    The air is coming out between the stud and it’s base. So my question is, how is that happening? Is it soldered in, screwed in or a pit of both?
    I did a little brazing at school 50 odd year’s ago, but not since. I have a gas torch for plumbing jobs but that’s it. Would plumbing solder do the job or does it need brazing, silver soldering. Your comments and advice would be very welcome

    cheers
    Malcolm
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2021 at 5:20 AM
  2. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    @malcolm race

    It will need re-soldering, in situ. Don’t try to unscrew anything.

    Plumbers solder is fine for this job. Anything requiring more heat might cause other problems.


    Cheers

    Tony
     
  3. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Thanks Tony, so do I just apply flux heat it up and hope the solder runs down in the right place?
     
  4. podbros

    podbros United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Hi Malcolm.. Cleanliness is everything when it comes to soldering.. clean metal, no paint or dirt.

    Where you put the flux, the solder will follow when heat is applied.

    If you have something to practice on first, that will help?

    There are some great threads on here, just search for 'soldering'

    Good luck
     
  5. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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  6. Darryl Durdin

    Darryl Durdin Australia Subscriber

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    @malcolm race . Hi there, follow, @Henry Plews lead, i had the issue, henery pointed me in the right direction, if you have the skill set to do it your self, i did practice on other things soldering and silver solder, i did land up taking it to a professional fell who solders things for a job, he silver soldered mine, job well done
    Follow the thread
    All good
     
  7. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Ok that great, a very detailed article, I’ll re read and follow later. Thanks Henry & Darryl
     
  8. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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    For jobs like this, I use a "flux brush" to apply a liquid flux. I use this brand but there are others which will be just as good.

    DSCN0653 (2).JPG

    Whether liquid or paste, flux is corrosive so once the job is done, make sure to wash off all residues.
     
  9. plantpot United Kingdom

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    FYI

    I have heard and read that you can "mask" areas you do not want solder to flow into or on, (ie all down your tank etc) by using a felt tip marker to paint in the areas you want to mask. Also read that indian ink does the same job. If i remember right this was on the CPL stoves site somewhere.

    i have not tried it myself however but have repaired many stress cracks in founts by the groove out, indent top of split, and apply paste flux and electricians fluxed solder method that seems to work very well on my lamps and stove legs and founts.
     
  10. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Masking with felt tip marker pens works well, as does toothpaste.

    Tony
     
  11. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    A question for Henry, in the other article you say hold it by the handle.
    Do you mean I have to screw the frame back on. If so how tight? If I screw it on properly I’ll not be able to add solder to run down the thread, or am I miss understanding.
    I thought it would have had to be upside down to see the solder run.
    Mrs R has had me on other duties today so I might get chance to have a go tomorrow
     
  12. ROBBO55

    ROBBO55 Subscriber

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    Malcolm, is the leak coming from the threads? The threads are cut in a blind hole and shouldn't access the inside of the tank . You don't want to get solder in the threads unless they are leaking. Solder should be applied around the outside of the insert .
     
  13. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Yes Rob, the air is coming out between the thread & the insert. As far as I can see
     
  14. ROBBO55

    ROBBO55 Subscriber

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    Malcolm, I think you need to repeat the dunk test and determine exactly where the leak is. If it is coming from the thread, it could complicate the repair.
     
  15. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    @malcolm race

    I would be making very, very sure the leak is through the threads before embarking on soldering them.

    Indeed, if that is where the leak is coming from, there is a particular Loctite product that might fix your problem.

    You had better double check the leak.

    Tony
     
  16. george United States

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    Agree with Tony. It's a lot easier to fool with the loctite than the solder for sure.
     
  17. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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    When you say 'stud' ; do you mean like these

    DSCN0459 (2)T.jpg
    On the inside, they look like this
    DSCN0456 (3)R.JPG

    This was a Bialaddin tank but the principle is the same.

    DSCN0469 (2).JPG DSCN0470 (2).JPG

    Whether a stud or a socket, they're held in place because they're basically a nut and bolt. The solder is only there to ensure a leakproof seal. For some reason or another, the solder has split/cracked/torn hence the leak. As you can see, especially on the X246A tank, there's plenty of solder in situ so there may be no need to add more. Heat applied externally to either the boss or stud will conduct to the inside and soften the solder so that it flows, as soon as it does, remove the heat.
    BUT THE SOLDER'S ON THE INSDE; HOW DO I KNOW WHEN IT FLOWS ? I hear you ask politely. Be observant ! When the temperature is enough to make the solder flow, tiny tell-tale beads of solder will appear on the outside of the fitting.

    I imagine that for some reason or another, the solder has cracked/torn very much like the solder here (in this instance, the split wasn't the issue)
    DSCN0458 (2)R.JPG
     
  18. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    I’ve taken a video, but can’t seem to upload it, but yes it is leaking between the stud & the insert
     
  19. podbros

    podbros United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Videos are trickier to upload.. you have to post it on youtube or similar first..

    Take a pic with a small screwdriver pointing at the offending area???
     
  20. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Sorry Henry, my reply crossed with yours. The arrows in your photo are pointing at what I am calling the insert. My leak is between that and the thread
     
  21. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    EEC86418-0A9E-41B5-B35D-19F1E7BF1C90.jpeg The video shows it much better but I hope this helps
     
  22. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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    @malcolm race

    Ah, now I see. What you are calling the insert is in fact a nut. Not to worry, have another look at the second image I posted and you'll see the slotted round heads of machine screws. The screws are put through holes and secured with the round nut which is easily mistaken for an insert and then sealed with solder. All this is done during the manufacturing process before the baseplate is put in.

    So, all you need to do is make sure the threads are scrupulously clean, use wire wool to get a good shine on the brass, you could also wash with detergent or degreaser as a belt and braces measure. Apply flux and then start to heat the stud, occasionally touch the solder to where you're pointing with the screwdriver to see if it's hot enough, when it is, you will see the solder will flow. It wont take much so as long as the solder has gone all the way round, take away the solder and heat and allow to cool. Job done.
    This can't be too far from your doorstep.
    www.toolstation.com/lead-free-flux-cored-solder/p97854?msclkid=78c9144700211628e5ac4bb88c34a892&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLC+Hand+Tools+%7C+Brands&utm_term=4578778741140813&utm_content=Hand+Tools
     
  23. ROBBO55

    ROBBO55 Subscriber

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    @malcolm race
    Yes, and I see too. I was thinking of the version 1 or 2 with the brass frame that screws into the insert.

    13.jpg

    @Henry Plews is spot on with his advice.
     
  24. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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    @malcolm race

    My apologies, I should have mentioned that in this case, there's no need to fit the frame.

    Two more images.

    DSCN0656 (2).JPG DSCN0663 (2).JPG
     
  25. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Thanks Henry your cutaway pictures are great, and really cleared up my mind. I have to admit I was thinking the fastening was the other way up. Ie a headless stud in an insert with a hex nut inside to lock it in.
    I have some cored solder so I’ll pluck up the courage and have a go. I’ll report back later.
    Cheers
     
  26. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    2B3B6A74-E35E-467A-B105-E366302C3618.jpeg Well I bit the Bullet, and had a go! Success, the first attempt sorted the leak from the thread, but created a very slight leak from the insert/nut, I heated it a bit more added more solder and sorted. Probably not the neatest of repairs but I’m happy with it. I’ll clean up the excess as I get further into the job, it also will need a repaint now as well. Thanks for all your comments & particularly to Henry for his detailed text & brilliant cutaways. Getting me out of a jam again. Plus of course another skill learnt
    Cheers
    Malcolm
     
  27. Fireexit1

    Fireexit1 United Kingdom Subscriber

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    I would be tempted to heat it up a bit and wipe the excess liquid solder off - but be quick so you don't undo your repair :)
     
  28. malcolm race

    malcolm race United Kingdom Subscriber

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    I’m going to a soldering iron, just on the excess, so as not to get it too hot
     
  29. Gary Waller

    Gary Waller Subscriber

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    I use a damp piece of thick towelling to wipe excess solder off, you have to be quick though as it doesn’t stay fluid for long. It also helps to force the solder into the joint.
     
  30. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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    It's every bit as neat as my early attempts. Believe me, you'll get better with practice.
     

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