Tilly Guardsman not running very bright.

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by StephenLaw, Dec 22, 2014.

  1. StephenLaw

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    Hi all, first post on here, an excellent resource!

    I have recently bought a Tilley Guardsman which was restored and although it looks the part its not very bright.

    Its pumping up well and holding pressure, not pulsing and sounds OK but when I set it beside my other lamp which I believe is a X246A there's no comparison in the two. The guardsman is on the last in my photo.

    I have noticed the burner runs bright red after a few minutes run times and it has darkened a patch on the mantle.

    Its in really good nick and I'd like it running as well as it looks. Any help is much appreciated!

    Thanks

    Steve 1419289305-IMG_20141222_214041_opt.jpg 1419289327-IMG_20141222_224754_opt.jpg
     

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  2. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    When it was restored was the vapouriser changed?
     
  3. StephenLaw

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    I don't know, I would need to ask the man I bought it from on ebay. I thought the light was grand until I gave the other lamp a wee service.

    I suppose I could swap vapourisers to see?
     
  4. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Yes, that's what I would have done.

    When you get the one from the X246, pull out the pricker wire and see how much carbon there is on it. It could have been cleaned off during the restoration of course, but that won't have removed any from inside the vapouriser. The other likely problem will be an enlarged jet causing an over-rich mixture...
     
  5. StephenLaw

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    I'll swap them the first chance i get.

    Sorry to bombard with questions but its my first proper fettle!

    What the best method to clean inside the vaporiser?

    How do I change the size of the jet?

    Is it normal for the burner to glow red hot?
     
  6. Lamp_Doctor Australia

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    Hi There.
    The easiest way to see if gennie is problem just swap complete hoods over and relight .
    That way you can see what the problem is gennie or burner assembly .
    Bob
     
  7. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Tilley vapourisers are non-serviceable but some people try to clean the carbon from the inside using ultrasonic baths, solvents such as carburettor cleaner, or heat and quench. To my mind that's a waste of time and merely delaying the inevitable. Enlarged jets aren't repairable.

    As I said, Tilley intended them to be simply replaced at the end of their service life - they claimed 500 hours...

    Edit - 'gennie' = Aus speak for 'generator' = Yank speak for vapouriser. ;) :lol:
     
  8. StephenLaw

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    I understand, thanks.

    I take it a brand new one will work on the guardsman?

    I'll post up my progress!
     
  9. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    If it is the vapouriser that's at fault then a new one should cure the problem. A NOS (new, old stock) one is likely to be better than a brand-new one - Part No. 606...
     
  10. StephenLaw

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    OK so I swapped over the hoods and the one which came off the guardsman is still burning a lot duller than the one off the 246A.

    I take it its a burner problem then?
     
  11. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Sounds like it. But does the X246 now burn as brightly as the X246A did before the swop? If not, it could be a bit of both i.e. burner and vapouriser. Remember, your lantern is at least 60 years old and it's probably had no more than a light cosmetic restoration for the eBay sale.

    Burners can get clogged, too, - and eventually burn out. They're serviceable and can be dismantled for cleaning - there were even spare parts kits (SP2 and SP3?) available. The trouble is, after all these years and with prolonged use, the various threads in the burner erode with the high temperatures. This means you can dismantle them (sometimes you need to heat and quench) BUT you can't always get them to screw back together again.

    As a first resort, you might try clearing the air intakes and burner spigot with a bottle brush or something similar...
     
  12. JEFF JOHNSON

    JEFF JOHNSON United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Welcome aboard! :thumbup:
     
  13. StephenLaw

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    Aye it burns as well as on the other lamp.

    I'll give it a wee clean but to be honest if I think I'd rather just stick a new burner on there! Having seen the burner glow bright red I would imagine this burner not coming apart all that easily!

    I take it a new burner will work OK on this lamp? I'd like it to go as well as it looks.

    Cheers Jeff, and thanks for your help David.
     
  14. JEFF JOHNSON

    JEFF JOHNSON United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Hello Stephen, sometimes Tilley burners glow red if part of the burner is slack, but if that is the case, then there would also be a lot of smell from it.

    A new Tilley burner will work, but the build quality of modern Tilley parts is poor and it's often cheaper to obtain a few rough lanterns to strip for parts.

    Perhaps another member of this forum will have a spare burner, Jeff.
     
  15. Gneiss

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    Burners often come up on eBay and most of the time even second hand ones will be OK, but of course they are a gamble...

    Definitly worth givin it a good clean out though before giving up on it. Personally I'd clean it as well as I could without taking it apart first because as David mentioned the threads often go as soon as you try to unscrew anything.
     
  16. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    Tilley burners die of old age so the older a lamp is the more likely it will give less light. The burner is designed to do 300cp but old lamps often just manage to stagger up to 80-100cp. The modern burner can always be fitted as a replacement but that is not as well made as the originals and will often only do around 150 cp. It is getting harder and harder to restore an old Tilley with an older burner because of this. The answer is a New Old Stock burner but they are getting rare.

    So with older Tilley models learn to live with authentic and a poor light or replace old parts with new and live with non original. If you want bright then go Coleman or one of the Preston loop type lamps. ::Neil::
     
  17. StephenLaw

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    Hi all, I've taken the burner apart and given it as much of a clean as possible. To be fair it was in fairly good nick, barely any soot or carbon.

    Everything screwed apart no problem but the main part of the burner where the three air pipes and the mixing tube screw into seemed to be 'ovalised' as if the three airtubes were over-tightened or something? Aside from this I couldn't see anything that stood out as wrong.

    Any thoughts anyone?
     
  18. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Could be someone's nipped it too tight in a vice trying to get the mixing dome off...
     
  19. StephenLaw

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    It threads back together no problem but I'm sure it won't function properly. Pity as its in otherwise good nick!
     
  20. StephenLaw

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    Went to the local hardware store today and they had a new burner so I thought what the hell I want this going nicely for Xmas. Brought it home and fitted it, its the one with the split pin.

    All going well so far, a fair bit brighter than before but not near the X246A but I'm happy enough. The only one bug is there seems to be a slight orange glow\flame outside the mantle.

    Any thoughts on this? I've picked up a NOS vaporiser for the other lamp but I might try this into mine to see if it helps.
     
  21. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    That distortion of the buner casting is an indication of long usage. Might be clean inside but distorted brass means a loss of efficiency. Good way to test the various bits is to swap them around so you are running with different vaporisers and burners. That will tell you which is the problem part. ::Neil::
     
  22. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Classic sign of a vapouriser past its best...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2017
  23. StephenLaw

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    Its seems fiddling with the control cock will cut out the orange glow/flame.

    Is this normal or would there be a problem here. I'm more than happy with the light output now just wondering do they usually need the control cock adjusted? The control cock doesnt seem to do anything other than on/off/prick on my other lamp.
     
  24. StephenLaw

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    Sorry I didn't see these replies, I have a new burner and vaporiser on there now.
     
  25. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    No, it isn't normal so it follows there was a problem.

    The control cock on a Tilley has two functions. Firstly, it controls the pricker as you've probably already found out. Secondly, it shuts the lantern off by sealing the jet. This was a Tilley patented feature.

    What you had was an old, worn out vapouriser with an enlarged jet due to prolonged use. This meant that too much fuel vapour was flowing into the burner, resulting in a rich mixture and the orange glow/flame outside the mantle. When you partially advanced the pricker into the jet you were reducing the amount of vapour that flowed thus restoring the mixture to the correct ratio and the lantern burned normally.

    If you continued misusing the control cock, what would have happened next was that the tip of the pricker needle would have burned away and you would no longer have been able to control the mixture as you'd been doing, prick the jet or shut off the lantern with the control cock...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2017
  26. StephenLaw

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    So the original lamp is going like a sweetie now, new burner and a mantle sorted it! It was no better with the original vapouriser or a new one so the old burner was done.

    I've a wee niggle now with another lamp of mine, this time a x246a which when the control cock is in the 'closed' position, it weeps a small amount of oil out of the vapouriser.

    Its running perfectly aside from this, albeit a wee pulse when running.


    Edit: it would be the NRV in the control cock, right?
     
  27. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Nope, the NRV is at the bottom of the pump and screws off for servicing.

    If you're referring to the one-way valve under the control cock, these are redundant on a paraffin lantern so are rarely serviced. I guess you could stick a new seal in there - I think it's No. 155, the same as the NRV seal. But the pricker on the end of the wire should seal the jet. If it doesn't it's likely either the pricker or jet are worn and need replacing.

    Remember, this lantern will be over 50 years old and may well have been taken out of service because it needed parts which weren't easily available or, perhaps, too costly for the expected future use...
     
  28. StephenLaw

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    Cheers, changed the wee pip in the control cock. Seems to have helped a little but still a slight weep there. If I left pressure in the tank whilst the cock is off then it would weep out.
     
  29. JEFF JOHNSON

    JEFF JOHNSON United Kingdom Subscriber

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    The spring may not be strong enough.

    I always release the pressure from a Tilley when it's not in use and i leave the pump completely unscrewed and the control cock open, that stops atmospheric pressure from building up and causing the lamp to leak.
     
  30. StephenLaw

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    Yep that's what I've had to start to do.
     

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