Unflaming a Santrax Rapid 150CP

Discussion in 'Pressure Lamp Discussion Forum' started by Matti Kucer, Mar 14, 2020.

  1. Matti Kucer

    Matti Kucer Sweden Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Sweden
    Hi all!

    @optipri supplied me with this fine cute little Santrax 150CP lantern.
    Thank You Bo!

    It runs but flames appears from the mantle. I guess the setting is wrong, or could it be the mantle?
    I use a 100CP mantle for Primus gas lantern.

    What distance in mm between nozzle and tube is correct do you think? Its about 8mm now.

    IMG_20200314_223812.jpg

    IMG_20200314_223902.jpg

    Collage 2020-03-14 22_51_03.jpg

    IMG_20200312_225627.jpg

    IMG_20200314_222201.jpg

    Regards Matti
     
  2. ColinG

    ColinG United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,804
    That is a really cute little lantern!

    It seems to be running a little rich so you might try widening the air gap from 8mm to 10mm to see if that helps.
     
  3. phaedrus42

    phaedrus42 Subscriber

    Online
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2014
    Messages:
    1,950
    I'm still on the look-out for a 150cp Petromax type lantern. It looks like it could comfortably use a larger mantle, perhaps the same as Optimus 200 or Petromax 250. I suspect it may not be getting enough heat transfer to the Preston loop with that tiny mantle and combined with high pressure, incomplete gassification making it burn rich.
     
  4. Nils Stephenson

    Nils Stephenson Founder Member

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,586
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    I have always found that adjusting the mixing tube to the maximum distance possible gives the best results. I think a 100cp mantle will be a too small. I have used the standard 150cp mantle and even a 200cp mantle with success. I find that they work well but need pricking often. They just don't get hot enough to stop carbon forming in the vapouriser.
     
  5. JEFF JOHNSON

    JEFF JOHNSON United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    9,870
    Location:
    Shetland Islands UK..
    It's in fine condition!:thumbup:
     
  6. Matti Kucer

    Matti Kucer Sweden Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Sweden
    Good evening!

    Collage 2020-03-15 22_11_44.jpg

    I have widened the gap to maximum and put a 200CP mantle on, but unfortunately It's not running better.

    IMG_20200315_221729.jpg

    The mantle's partly black now.
    The old nozzle was looking fine, but the pricker needle wasn't stiff enough so It's crooked now.

    IMG_20200315_222518.jpg

    Last thing to try now is to reduce the gap instead an see what happens.
    Maybe ordering a new 100CP nozzle and pricker as last thing to try.

    Regards Matti Kucer
     
  7. LatMag49

    LatMag49 Germany Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2017
    Messages:
    110
    Location:
    Germany
    My Geniol 150 maybe has the same measures. It runs on 9 mm
    distance and with a 150 mantle. Your jet could be worn and/or the
    gap is not correct. With a new jet I always hold the needle upright
    and let the jet slowly go down to see if they like each other. No more
    crooked needles.
    Good luck with fettling.

    Matthias
     
  8. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,507
    Location:
    Malaysia
    It might be the jet if air gap adjustments wouldn't help for your case, @Matti Kucer
    Could be worn or even incorrect.
    Try a smaller jet or perhaps mix in a little CF or gasoline to see if it improves anything. The mixing tube of this Santrax is relatively small/short and therefore might not perform as efficiently as those on larger cp rated lanterns.
    I'd assume the lantern's operating at optimum pressure. I would suggest that you test the lamp without the mantle first. If it doesn't burn with a clean pale blue flame, you'd know it wouldn't work optimally with the mantle attached as well.
     
  9. Matti Kucer

    Matti Kucer Sweden Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Sweden
    Good evening!

    Thanks for feedback
    And
    Today i change to new cleaning needle and a new jet.

    It produced even more flames now....
     
  10. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,507
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Wow! Are you certain that the jet/needle is of the correct size? If its meant for 200 or more CPs lanterns, then you're sure to get more flames or sooting.
    100 or 150cp sizes are not too common and might not be easily available.
     
  11. Matti Kucer

    Matti Kucer Sweden Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes 100%. Ordered for 150CP lantern. Guess now its at J-tube mm setting problem. I'll also try to clean the loop once more.
     
  12. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,507
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Yes, get back to the basics first and start over. If the Preston loop is all coked-up, you'd not get it to vaporize the fuel as efficiently as a clean one.
    Or if there are tiny bits of carbon that keep flaking off the inner surface of the vaporizer, and partially blocking the jet orifice, it would not shoot straight and could reduce the total air draw into the J-tube. In effect, fuel-air mixing would be poor. You'd know if this's the case if you shut down the currently flaming lantern, allow it to cool, remove the hood and j-tube assemblies, re-pressurize the unit and lowering the needle. If the fuel stream does not retain a sharp straight jet, then it'll not function properly.
    Anyway what's maximum distance of the air gap that you could get in your lantern?
     
  13. Matti Kucer

    Matti Kucer Sweden Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Sweden
    Hi there!

    The maximum distance in the air gap is the maximum before the nut would unscrew and fall off, I'd say ca 10mm.

    Collage 2020-03-19 23_26_31.jpg
    It now runs better but some tendency to spot the mantle, it runs very good except its a bit smell.

    IMG_20200319_225344.jpg
    I had to strighten here, so that it doesn't press on the top hat.

    IMG_20200319_225028.jpg

    Above it runs almost ok, it soots the mantle a bit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
  14. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,507
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Just a little bit more of tuning @Matti Kucer
    Its way brighter than before. Is that after the vaporizer cleaning or the J-tube adjustments?
     
  15. isfuzzy

    isfuzzy Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    Singapore
    I sold off my Pmax 150 to a shelf queen collector. It was a devil. No new jets and needles, no mantles, no distance, no cleaning would net it running reliably.. She would only run bright for 10 minutes. Afterwards, leaks will appear under the jet and small flames will shoot out from the seams. Black mantle.

    I bought a Santrax.. They are the same thing. It behaved almost the same way but I did something. I popped in the inox burner in place of the clay one.
    Never missed a beat since. My mantle is always around 1 inch diameter on that lantern. No halo, no black mantles. I wouldn't know if the brass burners will work, but inox yes.
     
  16. george

    george United States Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,156
    Location:
    USA
    Is there a difference in size when you compare the clay burner with the metal one?:-k
     
  17. bp4willi

    bp4willi Germany Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2014
    Messages:
    505
    Location:
    Niers, Germany
    I have 4x petromax/geniol 150cp lanterns.
    All run fine.
    I added brass mesh or threaded copper wire stuffing in lower part of vapourizer.
    I adjusted air gap to max.
    9-10mm should be ok.
    If not achieved, you could bend the frame , to stretch it, to reach the needed gap.
    I added heat deflector ring above the mixing chamber, lower end of u tube.
    To keep off the heat from u tube, and guide hot gases to the preston loop.
    I rounded the u tube air intake and outlet.
    I widened the burner holes.
    I used 150-250 cp mantles.
    I start operate at 2-2.5 bar.
    Dim to 0.5-1 bar only when fully heated.
     
  18. isfuzzy

    isfuzzy Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    Singapore
    @george
    I don't see size significant size difference between the 2 burners but the inox interior part is way smoother. At least on mine. The clay one was just so porous and sandy. I think there was one thread on the clay burner materials over the years, like the vintage ones seems really dense.
    IMG20200730081747.jpg
    Like @bp4willi suggested with the distance, I just use the thickness of the nut to judge. That's the max height. You could do away with the heat deflector buy adjusting the vapourizer stem, get any side of the preston loop closer to the mantle. I did that for the larger lamps.

    Here's my tiny mantle. Its the first mantle after I used that inox burner. Over a year old I guess.
    IMG20200730081840.jpg IMG20200730081956.jpg
    Could use a #21 perhaps. I don't know what really is different with inox burners. Now, I can run any of my Pmax, including this 150cp, on 1 bar from the startup.
     
  19. Matti Kucer

    Matti Kucer Sweden Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Sweden
    Hi!

    I'm working on fixing my Santrax 150CP. Have aqquired some brass mesh. What measures to apply?
    IMG_20200730_084705.jpg

    Maybe i'll try the inox part later

    Regards Matti
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  20. bp4willi

    bp4willi Germany Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2014
    Messages:
    505
    Location:
    Niers, Germany
    @Matti Kucer
    Make roll from that brass mesh.
    Use as much brass mesh as you can stuff into lower part of vapourizer.
    Mind to leave space for needle rod.

    Don't use the inox burner. It's no use. Will ruin your mixing chamber. Because different temperature related expansion of inox and brass.
     
  21. isfuzzy

    isfuzzy Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    Singapore
    @Matti Kucer My inox burner been there for over a year now, screwed in with leftover mantle thread and copaslip. I never had the burner go loose on the chamber. Also both my 500cp has got the inox, no probs.

    WhatsApp Image 2020-08-01 at 01.32.00.jpeg

    Image was from my 500cp. But really, neither the chamber nor the burner got loose for over a year now.

    I dont have any mesh or copper wire wrap in the 150. The jet and needle are from Taiwan, or was it Korea. Definitely stopped using Pmax new or NOS Pmax needles and jets... Always give me thread elongation issues and also seems to wear out so fast.
     
  22. bp4willi

    bp4willi Germany Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2014
    Messages:
    505
    Location:
    Niers, Germany
    An inox jet would be advantageous.
     
  23. Matti Kucer

    Matti Kucer Sweden Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Sweden
    Hi all!

    I have put the brass mesh around the rod , and it seems to work.

    IMG_20200801_002239.jpg

    And below the preassure during test

    IMG_20200801_002303.jpg

    I'll get back to You after some longer period
     
  24. Matti Kucer

    Matti Kucer Sweden Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Sweden
    Didn't take long until mantle went black, and som flames occur.

    IMG_20200801_002746.jpg

    IMG_20200801_002746.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  25. WimVe

    WimVe Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    What does the pressure indicator show you ?
    What is "not long ".
    A filled up lantern will have a small pressure air bubble above the fuel. So pressure will drop faster then with a tank half full.
     
  26. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,507
    Location:
    Malaysia
    @Matti Kucer
    I'm guessing that your lamp burned bright, near perfect during initial light-up after preheating with spirit.
    But then, somehow started to flame and soot-up the mantle a little later?
    Is the air pressure in the fount still sufficient? It doesn't take very long to drop off if the tank is filled full or almost full of fuel. You need to keep the pressure sufficient, usually around 2 bar or 30psi(red line on the indicator/gauge)
    1.5 to 2.5bar range is still ok.
    If pressure is not the problem, then you probably could be having some burning-back in the J-mixing tube. If that's the case, the U or J-tube would be glowing red after a short while. The sound might be a little different too. That could also cause flaming and sooting of the mantle by consuming extra oxygen within the tube while starving it at the burner end.
     
  27. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,194
    Location:
    North Yorkshire
    7 minutes by my reckoning. Hardly time to loose a lot of pressure.

    Matti Kucer, Yesterday at 11:25 PM
    Matti Kucer, Yesterday at 11:32 PM
     
  28. isfuzzy

    isfuzzy Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    Singapore
    My first Pmax 150 always did that darkening after 10 minutes of brightness. The jet leaks after that. That devil :rage:
     
  29. Matti Kucer

    Matti Kucer Sweden Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Sweden
    Now testning the Santrax 150CP with a Optimus 100N preston loop and It's jet, but with the 150 needle (as before).
    New mantle as well, the old one pulverized.

    Will get back to You how it worked, if it stops sooting the mantle. Furst indication: it flickers a little but no smell so far.
     
  30. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    292
    Location:
    UK
    @Matti Kucer Good luck with the new parts.

    Your 200cp mantle is physically much larger expanded than the 150cp one on my Hipolito. I wonder if that’s contributing to the issue?

    D244090F-CE1D-4621-B0F6-F184CF272A7A.jpeg
     

Share This Page