Veritas superb NRV

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by Pancholoco1911, Jun 8, 2021.

  1. Pancholoco1911 United States

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    I have a veritas superb that I’m fettling as I type and the NRV needs the pip replaced but can take apart the lower section of the NRV and don’t want to mess up so here is my question

    is the thread counterclockwise or clockwise?

    thanks 9847B5E0-264A-4FAF-A19D-F11327948FE9.jpeg
     
  2. Henry Plews

    Henry Plews Subscriber

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    The ones I have dealt with were all right hand thread so counterclockwise to take apart.
     
  3. Pancholoco1911 United States

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    Took it down. Thanks
    F82AF360-F76F-491E-9D7F-C7D4A19ED349.jpeg

    Now I have another issue. Installed a 500cp mantle an getting over burn, deep cleaned the vaporizer also took it apart and still doesn’t want to work correctly and I’m getting frustrated lol

    here is a picture of the lantern burning
    0BF94761-6D67-464C-9249-B195FD3BEB27.jpeg 4F99CEB5-8E17-43BF-80E6-5587CB9BC23A.jpeg
     
  4. Pancholoco1911 United States

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    No halo with CF. So maybe oversized jet


    Remember this lantern has a positive shut off valve so it’s ok for white gas.
    E4D3D825-C83C-4B3E-B787-698BD4387F12.jpeg
     
  5. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

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    @Pancholoco1911
    Your jet is oversized. An Austramax jet will fit the vapouriser’s thread. You may need to turn, with a lathe, it down to suit the length.
    6F7D87EC-C51E-4EB0-A11B-DA5A3F14F3CE.jpeg
    The top jet is the original. The jet on the bottom left is an Austramax jet and the 2 jets on the bottom right are the lathed results.
    You can still get Austramax jet’s from:
    Kerosene Presser Lamps Parts

    Hope this helps.
    Cheers
    Pete
     
  6. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment...
     
  7. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    You beat me to it, David!

    Tony
     
  8. Pancholoco1911 United States

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    @David Shouksmith Thanks for your comment.

    @AussiePete many thanks for your post, this is the kind of comment I was looking for. A member who provides an alternative to get a lamp going.

    thanks again brother
     
  9. ColinG

    ColinG United Kingdom Subscriber

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    I just noticed the cork sleeve around the pricker control is missing. When it's been running a while that thing will get damned hot! I've never had to replace the cork myself but I'll have a think, see what I come up with.
     
  10. Pancholoco1911 United States

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    I was thinking about it and few ideas came to my mind but nothing concrete yet.
     
  11. toad of the cape

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    Salutations David, Is it or not.For the safety of others best just too state facts please. Oh on another subject, need to change "Lords" to Lordes.
     
  12. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    I thought Neil answered that question very comprehensively in another thread a day or two previously and I had nothing to add to that. In any case, it's not for me to dictate what other collectors do or don't do with their own lanterns in their own homes.

    But if you need facts:-
    1. Kerosene is less volatile than Coleman / white gas-type fuels. It follows that;
    2. Coleman / white gas will more readily vapourise than kerosene.
    3. It is the vapour of a hydrocarbon fuel that is most flammable.
    4. A positive shut-off valve is only ONE of the safety features of a lantern designed to run on Coleman / white gas-type fuels.
    5. Well-designed lanterns intended to run on the more volatile fuels also incorporate safety features such as lockable NRVs and shrouded pump outlets.
    6. Rubber pip in a cup on a spring (RPCS)-type NRVs are most often found in lanterns etc. designed to run on kerosene.
    7. RPCS-type NRVs are rarely found on lanterns etc. designed to run on Coleman / white gas-type fuels.
    8. RPCS-type NRVs are serviceable items because they deteriorate and fail if left - the rubber hardens with age or can be degraded by fuels or even if serviced frequently, can sometimes simply get a bit of crud stuck to them.
    9. If an RPCS-type NRV fails with kerosene fuel, the tank pressure forces the fuel up the pump-tube and out. Kerosene isn't hugely volatile so, at worst, you have a mess to clean up.
    10. If an RPCS-type NRV fails with Coleman / white gas-type fuels, the same thing happens but the liquid fuel more readily vapourises and it's near to an incandescent mantle.
    11. There may be other facts which haven't come to mind while I was writing this.

    Now let's imagine a summer's evening where the lantern owner is enjoying a barbecue with his family and friends. The food is good and the drink is flowing - everyone's having a jolly-old time. It starts to get dark and the owner lights his lantern designed for kerosene only, but which he's filled with Coleman / white gas fuel. At some point the RPCS-type NRV fails. The lantern isn't fitted with a pump-shroud or a lockable NRV so liquid fuel escapes from the tank up the pump-tube. No-one notices for a while and the fuel continues to leak, soaking into the tablecloth and wooden bench underneath, both of which form an excellent wick and further source of fuel. Eventually, fuel vapour reaches the mantle and ignites. The table becomes a mass of flames. The owner bravely puts his hand into the flames and turns off the positive shut-off valve but surprisingly, this does nothing. However his hand and arm are burned and his clothing catches fire. In the ensuing panic while people try to attend to him, the lantern continues to leak fuel. The tank heats up, the fuel inside reaches boiling point, Suddenly there's a massive 'boiling liquid, expanding vapour explosion'. You can make up the rest for yourselves.

    This is probably a worst-case scenario but how lucky are you feeling today? Is it worth the risk...
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
  13. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    As David says I can’t dictate how you use a lamp but in general lamps and any other pressure product are best operated with the fuel they were designed for. This is not only for optimum performance but for safety reasons. Veritas Superb is a kero lantern and as with most kero lamps the Superb will work with a gasoline/naphtha type fuel but that does not mean it is safe to do so. As far as I know only Tilley state that using petrol in one of their lamps “Will cause a serious accident”. Note they say “WILL” not “May” Most lamp manufacturers instructions don’t give this advice but I believe they should.

    OK so the Superb has a positive shut off valve but as with Tilley the pump valve discharge is in the fuel and a valve failure will leak fuel to the pump barrel and eventually to atmosphere within a few inches of the mantle flame so will ignite if that is a gasoline type fuel. ::Neil:
     
  14. Pancholoco1911 United States

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    So both of you guys will never light a Coleman 242 or 243. Both of them are white gas and have NRV instead of Coleman CV.

    this veritas has the same mechanism as both previously mentioned Coleman lanterns so for me it’s fine to do so. If you aren’t or feel “safe” please don’t do it.

    Thanks
     
  15. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    I couldn't find my Veritas Superb instructions which are probably still in the box somewhere but I looked at my Veritas 350 instructions. These say no more than to fill the lantern "not more than three-quarters full with clean Kerosene (Paraffin Oil)"

    As Neil states, there's no warning about not using other fuels and what the unintended consequences of doing that might be. I would guess that, at the time, the thought of anyone (in the UK?) contemplating the use of pressurised gasoline wouldn't occur to them - completely anathema then and still so for some folks over here tight now...

    Edit: In my naivité, I once ran an Optimus 111B stove at a CCS meet. The NRV failed, fuel (Coleman) ran out of the pumptube, gathered in the case and then ignited. Fortuitously, someone had the presence of mind to smother the stove with a dampened tea-towel and disaster was averted. The picture of this incident can be seen on CCS. It's mostly the backs of folk running away, tripping over guylines etc...

    Thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated...

    Further edit: I note the Coleman 242C has a positive shut-off, lockable check-valve and shrouded pump outlet. So NOT the same construction as a Veritas Superb:-
    Coleman 242C "Junior" instructions | Classic Pressure Lamps & Heaters
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
  16. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

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    I believe that the Coleman pump expels air into a fount through a tube from the bottom of the pump that is fashioned and located such as to be at the top of the tank. Therefore if the NRV fails, only tank air, fumes, will leak out of the pump and not raw fuel.
    This is another clear safety feature of the Coleman lanterns.
    Just sayin
    Pete
     
  17. Pancholoco1911 United States

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    @AussiePete

    No, you are right. Never thought of that pipe. My bad but I did CF on my veritas go only confirm that the jet was oversized and I’m not running the lantern on CF

    I’m not scare of flames and when I test my lanterns I’m always outside and alone
     
  18. David Shouksmith

    David Shouksmith United Kingdom Founder Member

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    Yes, that's the feature I've referred to as the pump outlet shroud. Click on the 242C instructions link I posted and you'll see an image of where it's fitted and how it works. As you say, if the NRV goes, only a small amount of air containing a small amount of fuel vapour leaks from the pump-tube, NOT liquid fuel.

    Some Veritas lanterns have a horizontal pump at the very top of the tank. I imagine this is to achieve the same effect. I seem to recall that's only on the 350 models though and not the Superb but I could be wrong there...
     
  19. Mackburner

    Mackburner United Kingdom Founder Member Subscriber

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    It is precisely because the NRV in Tilley and Veritas lamps discharge air into the fuel that may on failure leak fuel into the pump tube and I believe I said that earlier. So it is more to do with where the discharge point is than the type of NRV. Coleman pumps discharge air above the fuel so an NRV fail leaks air not fuel. The leak may be fuel rich but whilst the vapour may briefly ignite it will not flash back into the fount and it will drop the pressure so the lamp will go out.

    The Superb pump is high and horizontal so unless the fount is near full it will likely leak air not fuel but since the instructions state that a fuel leak is possible we have to assume it will not always be safe to use a more volatile fuel.

    All of this is a matter of risk assessment or if you prefer “What If”? I believe it is always preferable to use the fuel the manufacturer designed any product for and since it is never good marketing practice to maim or kill too many customers, in general we may assume the design is with a degree of safety in mind. So I always recommend you use the fuel the lamp was intended for because not only will it likely perform better it will also be safer.

    ::Neil::
     
  20. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Pressure lamps, whatever the fuel, must be thoroughly and regularly serviced to identify potential issues in good time. An experienced person (the owner hopefully) should keep an eye on them in use.

    A fuel leak (kerosene) gone unnoticed until too late led to this Tllley FL6 explosion with tragic consequences.
     
  21. toad of the cape

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    Good points David,now for my second issue,"tongue in cheek" which got side tracked (Cricket). Shame about the weather NZ could very well win.
    Warm regards From me anyway Alex
     
  22. Huckie New Zealand

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    What tool did you use to remove this? Didmyou make something yourself?
     

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