Vintage light mantles

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by Alex74, Feb 21, 2020.

  1. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    I recently bought a Tilley x246a as a job lot, for resale, and it came fitted with a new, long and really silky soft mantle. When lit, it effortlessly self-shaped into a very symmetrical pear-like geometry, giving off the most pleasing yellowish vintage light I’ve seen given off by an incandescent lamp. The new Tilley ones don’t shape that well and give off a very bright white light. I tried Coleman ones but no good. The Chinese ones are also too bright and cold, probably because of the thorium salts. So, does anyone know a brand that gives off a warm yellowish light?
    8A4504AA-6B90-407C-81F6-4D1546493783.jpeg
     
  2. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Toowoomba Australia
    @Alex74
    I’m with you. The later mantles do output a bright light. But as I mature into my senior years, when camping, I appreciate the softness of a warm yellow-ish light when sitting around the camp fire telling lies. You understand, all under the influence of a medicinal beverage or three.
    My camp light is an early Coleman 249 with a yellow glass globe. This does the trick.

    Cheers
    Pete
     
  3. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    Ahhh! A yellow glass globe! Of course, but I can’t paint my PL53 globe yellow, can I?....[-X the mantle I found on this lamp gives off the perfect hue of light, but sadly I can’t make out it’s make or age. There was no writing on it or anything that may help identify the manufacturer. Just a very long, sock-like soft pouch that shaped up beautifully and gives off a lovely warm light!
     
  4. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    Here’s the difference between a cold and warm mantle on identical V 320 lamps. Can anyone spot the difference? Which is the warm mantle?...

    3203A26B-BAE7-411F-85E0-B85E3EF4EA95.jpeg
     
  5. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
  6. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Toowoomba Australia
    @Alex74
    I reckon the warmer light is radiating from the left lamp. However the fount colours maybe effecting my perception a bit.
    Nice looking lanterns though. :D/
    Cheers
    Pete
     
  7. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    53596E8A-D462-4B9E-B1A8-DE60B967C7FD.jpeg 0BCE6A0F-0E72-46DF-BED3-653A136F9723.jpeg 709BD936-63C8-403E-B05A-D4F49ACF3CCC.jpeg Hi Pete,

    correct! Apart from the brass fount reflecting a bit, the left lamp has a vintage Tilley mantle fitted. The right one has a Coleman 500 cp. The phone camera didn’t quite do it justice, but it’s still clear. The Coleman is whiter and colder light. I much prefer the warmer tone of the old Tilley mantle. Now the question is, is there anything warmer still?

    In the meantime I got carried away and lit a new PL 53 I just fettle di. Bought for resale but I like it too much so I might end up keeping it..........
     
  8. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Toowoomba Australia
    Awww! Great light up, I do like the PL53, and a Champion beer!! You can’t get better than that ....... :D/
    Cheers
    Pete
    @Alex74
     
  9. ColinG

    ColinG United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,327
    Aye, Champion ale is a bloody good pint and no mistake!
     
  10. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    It’s bloody strong too! About 5% I reckon. Had two bottles last night and got up tipsy this morning. Look at the things I have to do to keep lamps serviced!
     
  11. ColinG

    ColinG United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,327
    Around 7.3%! Brain busting strength!
     
  12. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Toowoomba Australia
    @ColinG
    Any stronger and you’ll be able to run a lantern on it ........ :lol:
    Cheers
    Pete
     
  13. Wim

    Wim Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    745
    Location:
    Dendermonde, Belgium
    You guys really need to visit a Belgian pub or supermarket! Pils normally comes at 5.2%, and from there it goes up till 10% and more....8]
     
  14. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    5,300
    Location:
    Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
    @Wim

    I enjoyed the beer in Belgium when I was there a few years ago. I learned very quickly to study the alcohol content before devouring a pint!

    The beer on tap in the pubs was excellent.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  15. ColinG

    ColinG United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,327
    In the UK it seems like most beers and ciders are kept at around 5% probably because of a perceived drink problem. There are some exceptions like Champion and Special Brew plus a few others but they're in the minority! I like a good strong ale and generally have to wait till Whychwood brew the occasional batch of King Goblin... that's a damn nice pint!
     
  16. AussiePete

    AussiePete Australia Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Toowoomba Australia
    @ColinG
    That’ll straighten the kinks out .....
     
  17. BigStevie

    BigStevie United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2018
    Messages:
    839
    Location:
    Scottish Highlands
    Strange how a thread can so easily slide off topic....

    I do like a PL53 and yours looks perfect! How could you sell it???

    I grew up in Yorkshire where they make proper beer. Dark, flat, warm and strong. Beer that can stain a piece of ancient oak and rot a Belstaff jacket..... I seem to recall the most evil of these beers was Theakstons Old Perculiar, when bought from the barrel at the White Bear in Masham, where the stuff was brewed......
     
  18. ColinG

    ColinG United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,327
    Oh yes, Old Peculiar is bloody good ale... Wadsworth 6X was a favourite too but I haven't seen it for ages.
     
  19. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,220
    Location:
    Malaysia
    @Alex74
    Well, usually the newer non-thoriated mantles would give a warmer, yellower light. I don't recall any vintage ones being yellower than the later yttrium types(other than from beer-influenced visual perceptions).
    With other factors such as fuel-air mixtures being assumed optimized, no worn jet orifices, without defective features being present and properly sized mantles, I wouldn't think its common to find a vintage mantle brand with products that were deliberately made to emit a 'yellower/warmer' light as compared to the standard thorium types.
    Maybe there had been a slight over-dosage or cerium salts, which had been known to cause the thoriated ones to produce a more reddish hue and thus making them appear somewhat yellower.
     
  20. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    Thanks Myn for a well explained point of view. There is no doubt the modern Tilley mantles emit a warmer light than the cheap Chinese imports, which, as we know, are radioactive. It may well be thorium salts. I wonder if doping the mantle with sodium salts would increase the orange D line emission in the flame (589 nm), resulting in a warmer light. I’ll try it...

    along some new beers. And yes, Old Peculiar and 6X are really nice brews. Wadworth brewery, Devises, Wiltshire.
     
  21. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    BigStevie,

    20 years ago I lived in Tadcaster for almost a year. If there is one thing I remember well is the smell of hops coming from Sam Smiths brewery and the lovely flat dark pints I had with friends at the pub. Happy times.
     
  22. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,220
    Location:
    Malaysia
    @Alex74
    I almost wanted to suggest the addition of sodium salts to increase the yellows. But I held back because most sodium salts would melt below 1000deg C and induce fluxing of the mantle's original materials. In effect, the mantle might eventually fuse into some sort of mess.
    However, you could experiment with other salts that would thermally decompose into higher melting point refractory oxides. And those that could add some reds and yellows or reduce the strong candoluminescence of Thorium dioxide(if its thoriated).
    I would be tempted to use some calcium nitrate(fertilizers) dissolved in methanol, epsom salts(hydrated magnesium sulphate) or aqueous mixtures of both. Lightly soak or spray the solutions onto a piece of unburned mantle(care not to leach out any original chemicals). Dry it and then light up as usual. Do it outside to allow the initial decomposition products(oxides of nitrogen and sulphur!) to vent off safely.
    The new residues that would form would be refractory calcium and magnesium oxides, if they could work at all.
     
  23. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    MYN,

    what a great idea. I’ll definitely give that a go. I’ll try and get some salts from a chemist or online. There’s no harm in experimenting. I suspect Lithium and strontium oxide would probably give off a lot of red especially in the presence of chlorine as you would form the mono chloride emitters which are only meta stable above 800C. These are the standard molecular emitters produced in pyrotechnic flames, so they may work here too.
     
  24. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,220
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Well there's actually some differences between the colour emissions of glowing mantles and pyrotechnics, Alex.
    As you've already pointed out above, the production of coloured flames in pyrotechnics relies on the vaporization of the salts of metals, i.e., sodium, lithium, strontium, barium, etc. These are exhaustive/one-off reactions in pyrotechnics. The glowing mantle does not work on such principles. The resulting colour is only temporary, as the salts would quickly decompose, leaving behind refractory oxides, which do not display such characteristics of their corresponding salts, at normal mantle operating temperatures.
     
  25. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    Myn,

    yes....however I have a blue torch ‘novelty’ lighter which produces a green flame by heating to incandescence a small ball positioned a mm from the lighter’s gas orifice. I wonder if this tiny globule is made of borax or a mix of barium or copper salts which continue to glow and emit green light upon exposure to the hot oxidising flame. It will eventually be consumed but it will take a long time I suppose?
     
  26. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,220
    Location:
    Malaysia
    If its borax, you could dissolve it in water. Sure, boron compounds would emit a greenish light when sufficiently heated. But the sodium in borax is rather overwhelming, yellowing the flame. A lot of brazing fluxes have borax incorporated. It'll fuse/melt in the flame. I don't know what the tiny globule in the lighter is made of, perhaps some boron-glassy material. It makes the flame visible. It'll last in the lighter cause you won't keep it alight for long periods, unlike the mantle in lanterns. I wouldn't say it'll last as mantle material. Its a lot harsher in the mantle due to prolonged incandescence. If you prefer to try sodium salts for the strong yellow, maybe sodium aluminate might withstand the conditions because it has a higher melting point than mantle operating temperatures, which I'd estimate to be in the range of 950 to 1100 degC.
     
  27. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,220
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Ok, I've just tested soaking an unburnt mantle in calcium nitrate dissolved in methanol. It didn't work. The salt acted like some fluxing agent during burn in and the mantle disintegrated before even turning on the kero.
    Plan B: smearing a new non-radioactive mantle inside-out with some pigment-grade green chromic oxide--chromium(III) oxide before burning in:
    20200315_004650.jpg

    Burn-in with spirit as usual:-
    20200315_005243.jpg
    This time it sort of worked. The resulted light was dramatically dimmed. And it was so yellow that it became sunset orange. I'd say its way too 'warm' for me:-
    20200315_011020.jpg
     
  28. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    MYN,

    that is a most interesting experiment! You got the mantle glowing at a ‘yellow frequency’, so partial success I’d say, even if it’s too dim for your liking. Maybe there is scope for improving with other oxides. I’m just conscious that your trivalent chromium could oxidise to the carcinogenic exavalent state in the flame? Careful when you remove it!
     
  29. MYN

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,220
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Aware of that Alex.
    Its not too easy to oxidize the trivalent chrome to hexavalent unless the conditions are highly alkaline at the same time. The green oxide would turn yellow in case if it has change to the hexa state. Nevertheless, its only for testing out of convenience as I happened to have some green pigment at hand.
    Yes, it was definitely glowing in the yellow range of light frequencies, but the photo does not reflect exactly the real colour. In actual the light had a colour similar to a cross between a sodium discharge lamp and a campfire. How do you like that?
    So the outcome could open up more possibilities for those who prefer a softer or warmer shade of light than what could be produced from commercially available gas mantles. I know that quick lime(calcium oxide) would glow somewhat brighter under similar conditions. You could easily smear the mantle with just about any refractory powder, provided its fine enough.(so fine that brushing alone wouldn't remove it from your smeared fingers). Perhaps even some very fine clay powder could do the trick.
    As for me, I'd be interested if there's anything that could make Thorium-mantles glow even whiter than what they already are.
     
  30. Alex74

    Alex74 United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Faringdon, Oxon
    MYN,

    you got me interested in trying a few powders and experiment. I’ll give clay and other calcium containing salts a go first and will post a few photos. I think there would be a market for mantles producing various colours or at leAst warmer light. As to your liking of bright and dazzling white light, you want to increase T further to push the emissivity of the candoluminescent salts towards blueish light. A hotter fuel and leaner stoichiometric ratio might do the trick, but you may end up melting the brass spigot ghat holds the mixer, or the mixer itself...
     

Share This Page