Petromax hand scratchings - are they actually made at the factory or not?

In my collection I can prove the E in G until April 1953.From August 1953 the E is missing. The proof are the hand scratched numbers.

Regards Reinhard

 

The fount without dout is made after war. The pre war founts were a bit smaller.
Two of my lamps are date scratched 1951with E&G, another one from 1954 only
has the G. This is within the time frame Reinhard stated.
So the "somebody" for sure was the Petromax factory in Altena which produced them.
The Schott globes for example also showed E&G for a much longer time.
So we have the fact that after war founts until 1953 were stamped E&G.
But why they did so remains unknown.

Regards
Matthias

 

What I know is that whatever remained in the former E+G facility in Berlin after WWII was in the hands of the Russians. Till exactly what year, I'm not sure.
Erich and Fritz Graetz had already been dismissed earlier, and they eventually setup a new 'Graetz' in Altena, West Germany sometime in... 1948?
So, assuming that whatever made in Altena does not have 'E' on the logo, could there still be any lanterns with E+G stamped on the founts in production at Berlin after WWII? (In this case, say we limit the years from 1945 to 1953),

 

The Petromax plant was located, I think, in a place called Triptow (sic), right outside of Berlin - in the Eastern (Soviet) zone.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
The "E" within the "G" was deleted, I think, after 1953.

 

You are right, George. Yes, Treptow.
I was wondering whether lanterns wiťh E within G logos were still being produced there during the years 1948 to 1953.
The factory in Altena should be up and running by that time, and I believe Graetz would exclude 'E' for whatever items produced there. But I could be missing something if any lanterns with E+G logos were ever made in Altena between 1948-1953.

 

If I did not miss anything, I'd believe those with hand scratchings were made in the earlier E+G Plant(s) in Eastern Germany, not the newer one in Altena. Even those from the early 50s.
Unless, anyone has a unit with combinations of only the 'G' logo and the hand scratchings.

 

The EG logo was registered to Graetz A.G. Hamburg on the 15th January 1952 and I think I remember that Altena began production in 1952. The G logo was registered to the same company, Graetz A.G. Hamburg, on the 13th November 1953. The plant was in Altena but the owners of the brand name and logos were the Graetz family in Hamburg. I have to assume therefore that for maybe a year and a half the Aletna factory might have used the EG logo.

The EG logo had of course previously been registered to Erich & Graetz A.G from 1907 and to Graetz A.G. Berlin from 1943 but I assume the 1943 registration must have been sold or passesd on to Hamburg some time after WW2. ::Neil::

 

There are Petromax lanterns with hand scribblings from throughout the 50s, before 1960. Not too sure if they are all from the Altena Plant.
If Neil's assumptions are correct, then the earliest production pieces from Altena could have both E+G logos and the hand scratchings.

 

Yes, that can be calculated theoretically.

Some features for Petromax 821 and 827 in my collection: The hood caps of the lamps from 1950 and 1951 are completely unmarked. This is not common with Petromax. Unfortunately, I have no 821 or 827 from 1952.

The dragon logos on the tanks are much smaller at the pre-war lamps at 821 and 827.
In my postwar lamps 821 and 827,the logo is always large, even in 1950.Whether with or without E&G.

Regards Reinhard

 

I can see that the logo's stamped 'dragons', seahorses or whatever they are, actually 'evolved' and changed a bit over time. Not sure if that was deliberately done or not.
I'll need to check if I have any unmarked 821 hoods as well.
I'll bet that they had to use new moulds and equipment in Altena when they started up. Probably most, if not all of the equipment in the former E+G factory were either confiscated, transported elsewhere or later destroyed after the Russians left.

 

The factory in Berlin was already renamed to Graetz A.G. in 1942.
Re claiming or re-registrating it (1952) doesn't mean that they directly made E&G branded lanterns. You reclaim your brand.

For the german collectors, find a copy of Signal auf Grün. It gives a good idea what happend in a metall factory during and after the war.

In the known prospekts and adverts you find the Graetz logo not the E&G logo.
The history in german.

 

@WimVe
The tanks of the Petromax pressure lamps were marked with E&G until mid-1953.The numerous hand scratched date codes do not lie. These are facts.

@MYN
The 821 and 827 tanks marked E&G from 1950 to mid 1953 have the larger Dragon logo. That is another reason why it can be said that these are postwar lamps.
That's why I showed you the two photos.

Regards Reinhard

 

Dragons??? They never were dragons. Always seahorses then and now. Max Graetz stated that sea horses were his father Albert’s favourite animal and that is what they were always intended to be. ::Neil::

 

I'm aware that those were supposed to be seahorses.
The problem is that those logo 'creatures' certainly appeared (at least to me) more like some sort of dragons or serpents than seahorses. I see lifted legs/claws, widely opened mouths with writhing tongues...
I couldn't recall if any known seahorses having such features.

 

On the current website Petromax itself writes about the "Dragon Logo".

Logos & Icons Archive - Seite 2 von 3 - Petromax

 

Mmmm...

Seahorses are fish. They do not have legs, claws, or a mouth like the above illustration, nor the illustrated tongue (they ingest food through their snout).

Edit: Looking through this thread and its various depictions of the Petromax logo, it seems apparent that the seahorses in the logo were always artistically enhanced, and changed over time.

petromax 827/200 CP what age ?

Tony

 

Oh I agree they look rather dragon like but that is not relevant. Max Graetz owned the company the brand name and the registered logo and he said they were seahorses. Therefore no matter what artistic license was used to draw them and no matter how many legs and claws they appear to have they were always seahorses and still are. ::Neil::

 

Those from the logo here have more resemblence to seahorses:
But then, I found that the real creatures could actually evolve to mimic their surroundings and might appear to have more protuding appendages that look like claws and make them look more 'dragon-like'.

 

This is very interesting.
Petromax is known as the Dragon brand in Germany. The Seahorse brand was always Hipolito. Mr. Graetz died long ago, l can not ask him.
Nevertheless, I believe Neil's story.
I can imagine that for sale reasons the seahorses made dragons.

Regards Reinhard

 

Well from Wikipedia, I thought I read something like 'Seahorse-looking Dragons'.
Anyway, it'll be interesting if anyone has or could post a picture of the Petromax lantern that was made in the old east Berlin plant between 1945 and 1948, during Communist ruling just before it changed name to VEB Graetz Werk.
Just to verify the logo it used during that time and any hand scratched dates under those.

 

Who says ?
You present your thought or ideas as being the truth. Now even in Germany.
I have been there form the beginning of the Petromax forum. You know which I mean. I have been to many of the meetings as is Neil form the beginning. I have never heard anybody say its a "dragon" brand.

I think that somebody or somebodies marked their collections with dates they believed match. Then these collections or parts are now being sold or at least going around the globe.
If you make thousands of lanterns you don't scratch lantern pristine bottoms. I know for a fact that people marked their collection to identify the item if it was stolen. These will pop up in the future then there will be a new mystery.

All the evidence in books, research and prospects say Graetz after the war. Nowhere is a picture or mentioned E&G as a logo. The fact that the family re claimed their brand doesn't mean they used it.

Did somebody count the lines in the petromax name ? They mark a date too.
Or why is there a quarter out of the centre of the logo ?
The sun rays (32) are different in the old days, what does that mean ?

Kerosene lanterns where a tool not a collectable with hidden messages.

If you really want to do research, take a look at the "Zentrierboden" part 122. That shape shifts through time.

 

I do not think these creatures look like seahorses, do they?



In the historical literature of the same time, seahorses look like this.

 

It comes from a business letter from 1899.

 

I have no doubt the original intention of Graetz was a pair of stylised seahorses.

As a student of zoology (many years ago) I was making a tongue-in-cheek comment about the depiction of them in the logo.

Cheers

Tony

 

I disagree, even then it was known that seahorses have no arms and legs.

 

Those winged creatures from the logo of the 1899 business letter even had teeth!

 

I suspect that the seahorses have changed into dragons over time due to misinterpretations. When something is written hundreds of times and copied again and again, the truth is suppressed.
It is exactly the same as the name of the Petromax 829, in the meantime it is only called HK500, although the type plate still says "Petromax 829".

 

Damn, they sure had me fooled all these years! I thought they were dragons...
It still has to be the damndest looking seahorse I've ever seen...

 

I've seen quite a number of variations on the logos of E&G or G only. All having some difference from each other. From that found in the business letter above to those on the Matador lamps to the early Petromax pressure lamps to the later Altena-made lanterns (excluding the present day Petromax with a P within a G).
Not only the Seahorses could transform into dragon-like and vice-versa but the Sun too could have different ray emanations or a smiling face in it and some having a star at the top part of the logo as well. Also, on some, the left 'dragon/seahorse' might not be an identical mirror image of the right one.