Just scored 2 free Coleman lanterns

Our neighbours across the road are shifting and had a clear out, they put a bunch of stuff out for free on our street and I found a couple of coleman lanterns!
One is a 249 and the other is a 236 that runs on gasoline, both are in rather good condition and appear to have had little use. The ventilator has seen better days with the 249, but its usable.
Ive not had an awful amount to do with Colemans, Ive only ever used a more modern gasoline model and I bought a 249 that runs on kerosene some time back.

Few questions, firstly the 236 surges while running, I believe this could be to not enough fuel in the tank, but I thought I had enough in there to get it running.
Also when I tried to start this lantern, it had quite a few flames with black soot while priming.
Now I have a more modern 220H lantern and that thing starts with little to no effort and just burns dim until the generator heats up, im not sure if the procedure differs with these older models, but i was careful to leave it on low until it got going.

Now the 249 runs OKish, but has a slight surge, but this thing gets pretty darn hot!
Is this normal for this model? The fount is hot to the touch, and the cleaning wire would burn you if you touched it.
I have not used my other 249 enough to really take much notice of the temperature, so need to fire it up to compare.

I also question the size of the mantles.
I didnt feel that either of these lanterns run that bright.
the 236 is supposed to be 500cp and the 249 is 300cp if im not mistaken?
The mantles installed appear to be fairly older coleman mantles, and are intact, but my other 249 I bought Im sure it burns brighter, I need to compare both side by side, the peerless mantle i bought for my first 249 was supposed to be for a 300cp lantern, but its a larger size than the mantles installed in both these lanterns.
I also wanted to ask if there is much difference in quality between a british made lantern and a canadian made one?
My first 249 is made in Canada, but this one is made in the UK, I noticed the british one has a wingnut on the ventilator, is this original? My canadian one is a knurled nut like most colemans ive seen.

TIA

 

You had a lucky score. Both the 249 and the 236 are among the best lanterns Coleman ever made. I'd say, they're in the same league as the 242.
I'm not sure what you meant by the "236 surges during running".
Do you mean it was periodically pulsing? Random flickering or erratic burning while running?
The 236 has a fuel-air pickup tube inside the fount. You should be able to start it using the quicklighting feature. If you're using the right fuel such as Coleman Fuel or other similar volatile fuels, you should be able to start it without much drama.
Light it as you perform the quarter turn of the valve knob, then wait for the mantle to glow bright and hot enough before opening the valve to full.
If it is sooty, then the fuel-air pickup might require thorough cleaning. The orifice that picks fount air might be partially blocked. You should check that both the air tubes and the cast brass burner is free from spider webs, wasp/dauber nests and other unwanted obstructions.
It is often find the generator or vaporizer tube being clogged up with carbon on old, used lanterns. You should check that all parts are clean internally, particularly the entire fuel train.
A Peerless 24A or a Coleman #1111 mantle would suit the 236 better. I prefer a coarse-weaved, bulbous type.
The 249 does get hotter while operating than most lanterns. That's mainly because it has a 300-350cp output but just having about the same small size of a 242.
I'm not sure if there's any significant quality difference between a Canadian and a British-made 249. I think not much if any.
I don't think the winged captive nut for the hood is original.

 

I completely dismantle lanterns and thoroughly clean every part including the inside of the tank, we never know what type of fuel has been used by a previous owner, so by cleaning everything the lantern is given a fresh start.
I prefer to use bulbous mantles rather than the sock type of mantle, because a bulbous mantle will form closer to the vapouriser / generator and keep it hotter so that the fuel vapourises properly.
The wing nut is not original.
Great finds!

 

Two good lanterns

Coleman fuel valve design

 

Yeah, pulsing is another way to put it. Basically it will surge bright and then dim back down probably roughly a cycle per second, doesnt seem to be stable, I think its more a fuel flow issue rather than any blockages in the tubes, as I can hear the hissing sound of the fuel change with each pulse.
Your right about spiders and insects getting in the air pickup tubes, thats a common issue here, we have something called the "mason bee" over here which sounds similar to the daubers you are talking about, they are well known here for making their nests inside the tubes of lanterns and stoves.
I will strip it down and see if there are any blockages, etc.

That sounds right about the ignition procedure you describe, thats all ive ever done, I dont even think i had the valve open quarter a turn and I was having trouble, would too much pressure in the tank cause this? I didnt think i had given it too many pumps.
I guess there is no harm in trying again with more fuel, but my guess is that there is debris or some sort of blockage in the fuel train as you say. The cleaning needle doesnt seem to me making an impact.

I did wonder about the size of the 249 being a factor in how hot it gets, that and also the fact that kerosene lanterns generally run hotter than gasoline ones.
Regarding mantles, it seems there are a few to choose from, all the peerless ones I see available seem to be the same general fine weave sock mantle.
I looked at the pack for the ones i bought for the 249 and they are 22A, they are supposed to be rated up to 350CP, yet it seems a much larger mantle than some 500CP mantles ive used.
I see 2C-HG as another option for the 249 which looks smaller again.

I reckon there is a good chance that the mantle installed on the 236 is too small for it if size comparison is anything to go by.
I was about to go and buy some 111 mantles, but will go with the 24A as you suggest, whats weird is both the 111 and 24A are both advertised as 500CP, yet one is larger than the other.

Looking through this box of parts i was given a while back, ive found a gold top 500CP mantle, it looks the coarse weave type that you describe, this type doesnt seem to be as easy to find.

Are the generator tubes probematic to clean out? I heard they are packed full of asbestos and if its full of carbon you essentially have to throw it out and get another one?
The tank appears clean and still had a little white spirits inside, so at least the last owner had been using the right fuel, but still seems like something is disrupting the fuel flow.
I do question if the generator may be to blame here.
I felt the wingnut was wrong, was just not sure if the british made versions were different in this regard. It does not screw down all the way and someone has added a spring washer to act as a spacer.

 

Other collectors have mentioned that they use carburettor cleaner to clean Coleman vapourisers / generators, but I have not tried that.

Actual Coleman fuel is expensive in the UK., but some collectors have found alternative fuels to use, if I recall correctly, in Australia Shellite is the fuel which is used.

Coleman Gold Top mantles were of good build quality, but I think that Coleman stopped producing them, whenever I get the opportunity to obtain older mantles of any brand and type I do so.

I noticed the spacer under the wingnut.

 

That sounds a bit like brake cleaner, lots use it to clean gun barrels of carbon deposits.
We have Coleman fuel here, but its just a more expensive way to buy naptha/white spirits.
Looking at the datasheets for various brands and trademarks, it's a pretty much the same stuff but different proportions of various hydrocarbons at times, but i find they all seem to perform the same.
I expect this gold top mantles is fairly old, im yet to test it for thorium with my Geiger counter, that would verify its age.

 

You can clean Coleman generators. A repeated series of heat and quench cycles will break up most of the carbon build up. Unscrew the tip, remove the pricker rod and tube/spring/asbestos sleeve. Hold the generator with a pair of pliers and heat with a propane torch until dull red. Quench in room temperature water. Repeat until no particles come out of the tube during a quench. Then you can us a .22 caliber bore brush to scrub the inside of the generator. Older generators had an asbestos tube around the pricker rod. If you are careful removing it you can reuse it. Apply common sense to dealing with asbestos. If it's not being disturbed enough for particles to become airborne, it it not a threat. Don't grind it up, or stick it up your nose and you'll be fine. Newer generators use a cardboard (not really cardboard, but I don't know the right name for the material) tube and a spring-like coiled wire. Be careful with the pricker tube, if you break the wire on the end it's done for. Check for a small piece of fine mesh brass gauze in the tip end of the generator tube. Push it out and discard it lest you bend the pricker wire on installation. Visual inspection will show you when the generator is clean. Reassemble and off you go.

 

Some folk use ultra sonic cleaners to clean vapourisers.

 

I pulled out the generator and there is no asbestos tube or anything else for that matter that I noticed, unless i overlooked it?
It looked super clean to me and holding up to the light I could sight down the tube and see the pin prick of light from the jet.
I sprayed it out with brake cleaner and no dirt came out, but did not brush it.
Now I'm questioning if it's the correct generator.
The cleaning rod has a spring around it that's coiled in a way that has 2 wider parts of the spring, im assuming this is to centralize the cleaning rod?
There would be no room for the spring to pass if there was an asbestos tube inside.
I can get a photo if necessary.
Here is how it behaves while starting up, it takes a good couple of minutes to heat up properly.
Video here


Here is how the pulsating looks like.


Now i put a bit more fuel in the tank and the pulsating is better but not removed entirely, it improves as the fuel valve is fully opened.
Notice the gurgling sound in the video?
Sound like it might be sucking in air.
I know fuel starvation can do this, but I thought it has enough fuel at least a cup in here at the moment. I need to go and buy some more fuel to test properly, but I've never experienced this before, usually you can use all the tank with no issues.

thats a good idea, i havevan ultrasonic cleaner so should give it a go.

 

@nzoomed

This is what an old Coleman 236 generator looks like:




Cheers

Tony

 

My one measures 128mm long including the gas tip/jet which equates to 5 inches.
I don't see any numbers stamped anywhere on the generator, but it does have the correct triangle stamped on the tip.
No asbestos tube is present, this is likely my problem with preheating?

 

@nzoomed

Your generator is from a 236.

I haven’t got direct access to a new 236 generator to see how it’s constructed, but I’ll look later today.

First, check you’ve got the gas tip screwed tight.

Second, you could try using a few turns of fine brass gauze around the bottom of the spring and generator.

Cheers

Tony

 

I will have to shop around to find some brass gauze, but ive checked the tip and its on nice and tight.

 

You should also get the fount pressure adequate. Sometimes, if the pressure is too low, the likelihood of pulsing is higher during running. The pressure should be enough to overcome the expansive vaporization back pressure created when it is heated.

 

Ok, I did a test with this and pumped it up and took the ventilator off the unit so I could see how the fuel flow came out, it was still squirting out fuel in pulses, despite it being cold.

 

It needs more fuel.

 

Yes thats my guess.
I see the valve body has been removed from the fount at some point.
It's been fitted with thread tape that is not factory.
It looks like there is a fair bit of thread visible, is this normal? Are these a tapered thread at all?
I'm wondering if this is supposed to screw down further and make the pickup tube inside reach closer to the base?
I will measure the amount of fuel inside the tank, I feel i should have enough fuel for it to run in normal circumstances.

Edit:
Reading this link here looks like my exact problem.
I probably just need the asbestos tube.
Hopefully that aids in priming the lantern during start up.
236 Sucking Sound - Page 2 - The Coleman Collectors Forum

 

OCP sells the non-asbestos tube that was used in later generators. I don't know if it will fit the 236 coil. Message to Rob at OCP and he could tell you. The tube won't help with pre-heating but should help with the pulsing.

 

On the startup part, the erratic bursts of sooty flames in the video seem to indicate a poor air-entrainment in the fuel as well as discontinuity in the general flow of fuel-air through the jet orifice.
It might be a good idea to strip the complete valve block and fuel-air pickup assembly from the fount for a thorough inspection and cleaning. There should not be any loose-fitting in the assembly and certainly not any hairline splits or pin holes in the fuel-air tube. Otherwise, both the air and fuel paths during startup might be incorrectly altered/distorted and you might not get within the acceptable ratio range.
The metering rod should only protrude out slightly from the bottom pickup orifice of the fuel/air tube when the valve is fully closed.
Within a quarter-turn opening of the valve, the metering rod should begin to retract back into the orifice but not entirely. The metering rod should only fully retract into the orifice of the F/A tube as you open the valve towards full. Ensure there isn't any residue buildup around both the fuel and air pickup orifices.
It should be cleaned-off gently using both solvents and some assistance with a rather soft material like a toothpick or similar. The size of the orifice, particularly for the fuel pickup should not be accidentally enlarged. Otherwise, you'd get too much fuel during priming.

The 236 should have a brass coil for the purpose of centering the cleaning rod in the generator. By default, there should also be a so-called 'cardboard' or asbestos/ceramic fibre tube sleeving around the brass coil.
Among the main purposes of the fibrous tube are to ensure some fuel wicking as well as limiting the total fuel volume in the hot generator. At the same time, it also sort of insulate and prevents excessive heating of the fuel that is in immediate contact with the generator's inner wall. In some ways, it is to reduce the so-called Leidenfrost effect. The reason is to prevent an excessive amount of fuel vaporizing at any one time during running. An excessive amount of fuel vaporizing at any such moment would easily lead to periodic 'surges' of backpresures towards the fount. This is due to the fact that the 0.0095" jet or gas tip orifice would only allow so much vaporizing fuel passing through it. Pulsing can, to some extents be offset using a much higher fount pressure but the range can sometimes be beyond what is normal for that particular lantern.
Without the fibrous tube and when using a highly volatile fuel, the likelihood of unwanted pulsing on the operating lantern would be significantly increased.

 

I have the same problem with another lantern. When I back flush the valve and pickup tube with compressed air it operates properly for a while. I'm assuming there is gunk in there causing the intermittent interruption of fuel. My next move will be to remove the valve and clean the components.

 

Thanks, I will check them out.

I will need to study the parts diagram to get more familiar with what you describe.
Are you saying these have a pickup tube that also draws some air in from the tank and mixes it with the fuel?
I take it this might be the issue with preheating if its unable to mix any air with the fuel?

Looks like its going to need a full strip down and clean, likely its been unused for a number of years.
Hopefully I find no parts missing.

 

Here's what a typical dis-assembled Coleman 236 valve block and fuel-air pickup tube would look like:


For illustration and explanatory purposes, the following
diagram might give you some ideas on its functioning:-


Yes, the fuel-air pickup tube was designed to pickup both fuel and fount air during starting/priming.
Air enters the upper hole/orifice of the tube and gets entrained along the fuel flow at this stage(starting).
The position of the fuel control rod is critical with respect to the valve stem's position when the valve is being opened.
The intended instant-lighting startup would only function correctly if the there are no flaws in the assembly. The relative positions of the illustrated components are all critical.
That's besides the basic necessity of being clean and unobstructed by residues, gunk, dirt buildup, etc.

 

Yes, the fuel-air pickup tube was designed to pickup both fuel and fount air during starting/priming.
Air enters the upper hole/orifice of the tube and gets entrained along the fuel flow at this stage(starting).
The position of the fuel control rod is critical with respect to the valve stem's position when the valve is being opened.
The intended instant-lighting startup would only function correctly if the there are no flaws in the assembly. The relative positions of the illustrated components are all critical.
That's besides the basic necessity of being clean and unobstructed by residues, gunk, dirt buildup, etc.[/QUOTE]
OK, that gives me a better idea, I managed to unscrew the valve assembly and check the metering rod, it seems clean enough to me and it does move, but the problem is that the rod does not appear to retract at all until almost 1 and a quarter turns.
Now the question is why this would be happening?

 

Looks like someone has had this apart before going by the teeth marks.
Got it in the ultrasonic cleaner right now

 

Sometimes, it could be due to the conical end of the valve stem or the seat being worn as a result of repeated closing/tightening action of the valve. In such an instance, it might then require more than a 1/4 turn in the opening direction of the valve stem in order for it to back off sufficiently and allowing enough clearance for the fuel control rod's plunger at its upper end to rise up by spring action. The lower end of the fuel control rod would only retract back into the tube if its upper plunger end rises sufficiently.

 

When you're doing the Ultrasonic, it'd be better to first strip the fuel-air tube down to its basic components like that shown in the 2nd picture which I have posted earlier.
You need to ensure that both the inner and outer tubes are in order, mechanically/structurally.
Stripping it down would also allow for better cleaning.

 

Thats possible, or it could be possibly poor quality control from factory? ive been reading a few posts from others saying their lantern takes at least a full turn to open it.
Now, thinking about this further, this shouldnt really be the cause for my problems ive been having, if the rod is still in the orifice, and im getting black flames, then either the orifice is worn, or the air tube is completley blocked?

Yes, I tried to unscrew it but it was tight, I was afraid to take pliers to it the teeth marks present indicates the last owner was looking at this for whatever reason.
I ran it through the ultrasonic anyway, and found the orifice nut could screw back on further which allowed the rod to protrude further as a result, but not by any meaningful amount.
Anyway, I put the thing back together and it runs much better, it still flared up a little, but preheated pretty fast and started up, still have the surging which im confident the cardboard tube will address.
I noticed there is a bit of blue flame around the mantle, im wondering if the existing silk lite that is installed is too small for this?
I watched a video by KingColeman last night and he was rebuilding a 236, i saw him start up at the end and it still appeared to have the occasional flare up, so perhaps this is typical?
Either way, its much better than before, but if i continue to have trouble, I will see if I can get the air tube apart and give a deeper clean.

Ive polished up the fount as best I can, but its got a bad patch of corrosion that wont come out. Might get it nickel plated again at some point.

 

Whenever it is possible, it'd be best to ensure that the space of channel between the inner and outer tubes of the Fuel-Air pickup tube isn't obstructed in any way.
If it is so, the amount of entrained air in the fuel would be reduced or might just pass through in random surges during startup. In some ways, it might affect the flow dynamics of the mixture.

 

Yes I agree, its still not perfect but ive got it better, so im expecting there is still a bit of dirt in the air channel. I will see if i can add some padding to the jaws on my polygrips to get this tube off, I dont want to damage it.