We just went through this over on the sister site. I don't feel like rehashing it, but someone over there brought up the same fallacious statistics you did and I responded to them there. I invite you to read the thread and this article: Murders in US very concentrated: 54% of US counties in 2014 had zero murders, 2% of counties have 51% of the murders - Crime Prevention Research Center Hint: America does not have a gun problem, America has a gang problem. Again, you are looking at the main stream media, YOU ARE BEING LIED TO. Flat out lied to. Known falsehoods being told to you, and for some reason you're believing it instead of doing your own research.
I've no axe to grind, here - either way - but I'm interested to know how you conducted your own research, Marc. Since you (quite rightly) appear not to trust information from third parties, I presume you collected primary data. In a country the size of the U.S.A. that must have taken quite a bit of effort on your part, in order that you can be sure your conclusions are statistically significant. Just wondering...
@David Shouksmith I obviously didn't run out there and talk to people individually. Even in my own neighborhood, that would be quite a feat. I use studies and papers that are actually willing to publish their study methodology and criteria, and then decide from there. Many are not willing to do so because they know their methodology was designed to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion and not seek the truth, and they'd be called on it. If you ask people suffering from gunshot wounds in the emergency department of the hospital if they think guns are dangerous and shouldn't be owned, 98% of them are going to say "yes". Headline: "98% of people think guns shouldn't be owned". Reality: Pretty much the entirety of gun owners will never suffer from a gunshot wound, will never wind up in the hospital because of it, and hence would never have been asked. A recent statistic that's been thrown around in certain circles is that there were 18 school shootings in 2018 in the USA. Now, absolutely and 100% agreeing that a single shooting of any type is one too many and we NEED to solve this issue, that number is still fallacious. A gun control group counted 18 school shootings in 2018. That's now disputed — here's why The media is absolutely rife with this kind of intentional disinformation. That's a kind and polite term for it, I was raised to call that lying. If you look at the article in my previous post, the 54% of counties in the USA with no murders are rural areas with a 90+ percent gun ownership rate. That's a HUGE amounts of guns, in the hands of just about everyone. If the guns were the issue, these areas would be absolute bloodbaths, and they're just not. On the flip side, the areas where the murders are concentrated are also the areas with the strictest gun control, and that strict gun control isn't helping. The guns are not the issue here. The data is in direct contradiction to most of the mainstream media narrative. Back to the broader topic, this country and this world are pretty stinking good, but not a utopia. We have very serious issues, those issues need to be solved, and I'm totally on board with helping to solve them. Using incorrect data, or worse yet, intentionally falsified data, will not help us solve these issues, to the betterment of humanity as a whole.
I'll let the link you posted speak for itself. Now I'm out - I've no intention of getting into a debate about gun control or cause a debate about it to proliferate. Hopefully the moderator will lock this thread...
Woops, I missed my edit window. I do need to purchase a subscription for this site as well. I didn't mean to beat the firearm drum some more, it was just on my mind and the closest data I had to hand about the credibility of the media. My main point, though I didn't explain it well at all, was the lack of credibility which applies to all of the media's coverage. When one is reading or watching ANYTHING the media is putting out on any subject, always keep in mind that it's coming from first class liars whose first priority is forwarding their own narrative, and they're not about to let the truth stand in the way of that narrative. There are very few journalists these days, most of them are political activists.
David This is a good thread Colin started and it would be a shame if it were locked. Colin isn't to blame for any of its issues with the people participating in the thread. I have no interest in debating gun control. My point was a simple one, America has a disturbing level of gun related social violence that constitutes a health and social problem unique among developed countries. In citing gun related social violence I did so as an indicator that American life isn't as flawless as one might think that in fact we face very disturbing problems other nations don't.
100% agreed, we do have problems. Again, not a utopia. Our unique situation is going to take unique solutions. May we all be able to come together to find and implement those solutions.
Switzerland people have many weapons too. But did you here of any school shootings in Switzerland ? Its certainly the laws. And the piece between the ears. Could it help to sell more Tunnocks caramel wafers to the US ? ;-) Anyhow far to many news focus on US , while i would like to know whats happening in neighbouring countries with worrying leadership, or changes in same.
I can't see anywhere I blamed Colin for anything. My point was the thread would NEED to be locked if it continued down the path of gun control. But happily we seem to have turned away from that...
If I'm completely honest I really wouldn't mind if this thread was closed. A ton of unrelated issues have been addressed here but none of them are going to be thrashed out positively on an online forum - that just doesn't happen. In fact I'm quite surprised no-one mentioned Hitler yet (apart from the fact that I just did - sorry!) as this is usually the fate of most online 'discussions'. I only ever wanted to know if anyone else had considered stocking up on some basics items in case the sh1t hit the fan but the more time passed the less I read the responses, not that I'm complaining too much - that's how things go with some threads that wander off into uncharted waters. If anyone is interested, I stocked up on a few things, probably enough to last maybe a couple of weeks if the supermarkets ran dry for a short while but long term, it's not really possiblle for anyone to avert a long term supply problem unless you go all out prepper which I have no enthusiasm for and even if you did, you'd make yourself an instant target for those who ran short before you did. Anyhow, living in the location I do, we generally keep a well stocked larder so we didn't need to buy that much. For instance I already had 5x10kg sacks of flour because they were going dirt cheap a while back and we bake our own bread on a weekly basis so it made sense.
That's exactly how we do it, buy the stuff we'd normally use anyway, just in quantity. Buying in quantity is usually less expensive, and is definitely easier. Loo rolls by the case, oatmeal and flour and sugar and pasta and beans by the 25lb bag, dog and cat food by the 40lb bag, etc. Ziplock bags by the industrial/food service quantity, dish/laundry/hand soap by the gallon, etc. Use the last bit of your deodorant tube? No worries, there's a box of them in the bathroom cabinet. Reminds me, I need to order more toothbrushes. Almost all of my "preps" must make life better/easier/less expensive and have good solid reasons to exist even if the zombie apocalypse never happens - because it probably isn't going to.
No @David Shouksmith its not Fiction, we have Zombies in government right now ......... Brain dead and walking fits the bill, doesn't it?
Disclosure. My position is that gun control is essential in a civilised society Reasoning Before the introduction of new gun control legislation (1996) the historic death by firearms per annum hovered around the 500's in Australia The latest published statistics (2016) was 238 Source; https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/Australia If you are interested in looking further UNSCAR: UN Trust Facility Supporting Cooperation on Arms Regulation – Page 2015 – UNODA
This thread is a good one, no need to close it. Participants have been civil even if our blood gets heated by some of the discussion. .Brexit, food shortages, prepping , social problems , SHTF are related very broadly to national and international politics and economics . Its not simple to understand but no use ignoring that or being scared to discuss it. If you ask me why is Colin having to stock pile food or think of food shortages, its simply not the natural order of things for a guy in a rich modern country so why does he have to do it or think about it, the question just comes back to Brexit , a political and economic policy and movement. When you mention SHTF in America people automatically start to talk guns because part of prepping and any current national or civil disaster in America involve guns, an armed citizenry , looting , self defense that remains an open question here. During Hurricane Katrina for example refugees from the flooding path to safety was barred by heavily armed citizens policing there neighborhoods. In Texas a controversial bill is in play addressing the rights of the gun owners during natural disasters . So the question of guns and prepping is a question in American prepping just unique to our country.
Indeed they are. Kind of. There have been several instances of the EBT/Food Stamp system here failing and people not getting food stamps. Did the people at the registers just go "oh ho hum, well we'll go back home and wait for the system to be sorted out." Of course not, they rioted and looted the store. Zombies indeed. Feeding my family doesn't depend on me being able to stop by a store when I feel like it. I'd like to see the methodology of the stats you post, discounting suicide(people just find another way to commit suicide) and legal self defense. I'd also like to see a comparison of defensive gun uses. Here in America defensive gun uses run between 300k and 800k times per year, depending on which report you refer to. I've also seen plenty of stats showing the rape rate skyrocketed after Australia banned firearms. Edit: Also, here in the USA, the violent crime rate is directly opposite the firearm ownership rate. Rural areas have very little violent crime and 90+% firearm ownership rate with very little gun control, while big cities have terrible violent crime rates, high gun control, and under 40% firearm ownership rate. This strongly suggests that as far as the USA is concerned, your premise is flawed.
My apologies, @Tony Press, I don't mean to keep a sensitive subject in the limelight. I'm aware that to people in most other countries, the subject of firearms is a take it or leave it type of deal. Obviously we Americans feel much more strongly about it.
Marc I give you my sources. If you could be bothered you could delve into the methodology, but somehow I doubt if you will. Where are your sources?
I deserved that, you posted your link. Gun Facts - Debunking Gun Policy Misinformation Has a whole section on Australia which strongly suggests that the murder rate in Australia was on the decline long before and long after the 1996 ban and buyback - as they were in most western and European countries. America had the same reduction, despite doubling our number of guns in that time. Trends in homicide, 1980-90 to 2013-14 | Crime Statistics Australia Australian government's own stats showing the same thing, although you're right, firearm murder rates did decline. I've only found data on the UK's rape rate rising after a firearm ban, but not Australia's. I'll keep looking but as of right now it does appear I was wrong. Thank you for calling me out on that one.
Ok you win. Do a bit of research into the gold emblems on either side of the flag. Note that the axes are showing. It may explain attitude to gun control by a lot of Americans. I will post no further on this matter. PS. The image is of the American House of Representatives Speakers Chair
There is no "win", only further search for the truth. I'll look up the gold emblems on either side of the flag, and will drop the subject as well. Save blood pressure all around. Off to order those toothbrushes I mentioned.
