Hello, I just acquired a Thermos 8319 Donut lantern. It is very clean for it's age, no rust(not as clean as the NIB Kamplites that are appearing more frequently, but pretty clean). Tore it down, cleaned it, replaced the fuel cap gasket, pressurized it and checked for leaks(none), oiled the pump leather, pulled the generator and it is very clean. This lantern appears to only have been lit a time or two. It is missing the original globe, so I fitted some spring hooks to hold a spare Coleman globe in place. My problem is that it burns very yellow and will burn brighter when a gust of air hits the intake port between the tank and bezel. All tubes and passages are immaculate with no obstructions or spiderwebs or wasp nests. I see no way to adjust the mixture but did notice that if I tweak the cleaning needle just right it burns whiter, but at a lower output. Could the larger opening in the globe be my issue? I held a coffee can to the bottom of it to try and throttle the air flow at the bottom of the globe, but it had no affect. Any help would be appreciated. Mike
Update: Started with a Coleman #21 mantle. Upsized to a larger generic(probably thorium based) mantle and got better results, but it still works best after tweaking the cleaning needle. When I hit the sweet spot, it burns brilliantly white. However it is difficult to maintain, especially when it gets jarred, and will occasionally flare at this setting. Any ideas? I LOVE the design of this lantern. Wish they still were in production. I can see after tearing it down that it was probably cost prohibitive from a production standpoint. For those who worry about the tank above the burner, after running this for several hours, the tank was MUCH cooler to the touch than any other lantern I own would have been after similar burn time. The double wall ventilator vents the heat away marvelously. Mike
A Coleman #21 is the right size for this lantern. It is possible that you have a partially plugged fuel screen. That is inside the fount. It surrounds the fuel orifice that is in the "fuel/air standpipe". If you have never had one of these apart they are a different kind of duck. Below is a close up image of the fuel valve with the fuel air standpipe. On the reduced diameter of that stand pipe near the valve body you'll see a tiny "dot". That is the fuel metering orifice. There is a screen that covers that orifice. That TINY hole is where all the fuel goes through when this lantern is burning. The air for light off comes in the open end of the tube. Air flow gets cut off by fuel density once the valve is opened fully. A clean fount on these is PARAMOUNT. So "donuteer", are you ready to perform surgery? Many times that screen will crumble when you try to clean it. Some fine wire gauze will be a good substitute. That stand pipe will unscrew from the valve body for thorough cleaning too. Take some pics as you disassemble. Just in case you forget how it goes back together. Bob
Bob, Thanks for the info. Makes sense. It's definitely a different breed, that's for sure. A bit more detail on the symptoms. It flares quite a bit when lighting for about 5 to 10 seconds and soots up the white porcelain reflector. After it's generating it runs loud and a bit yellow. I slowly turn the cleaning lever and it goes brilliant white and near silent. No issues performing surgery. I've already taken it apart to clean it, but didn't pull the valve block from the tank. I can see the key issue on reassembly will be clocking the valve block correctly. I don't want to move that capillary tube any more than necessary. I have some fine brass mesh that I bought a few years ago for military vaporizer screens. It should do the trick. Scalpel....Suction.....Clamp....Suture. Let me at it. Any opinion on globes for these? I was thinking that there may be a pyrex bowl out there that is the correct diameter. I could try to cut a hole in the bottom with a diamond hole saw. Or have a glass blower custom make one.(I'm sure that will be cheap....NOT!) For now I have 3 spring hooks secured to the cage that hold a straight Coleman globe in place and it seems to be working ok. I'm looking for copies of the manual and part diagram for this model. Not that the part diagram would do much good, I just like to have it for reference. I have the Kamplite manual, but I found it lacking detail. What, if any, are the differences between the 8319, 8321, and the different Kamplite and JC Higgins models. I know there are some with vertical pumps. Is the pump check valve interchangeable with a Coleman. I've seen some of these with the Coleman type locking pump with the thumb hole. Sorry for all the questions, but I can't find much detail info on these. I'll post pics of this adventure soon. Mike
Hi Mike, LOL! You too? I swear that if you can "cold start" one of these and NOT have it flare or soot up that porcelain inner plate, YOU'RE A BETTER MAN THAN I GUNGA DIN! That fuel system requires a deft "hand on the throttle" to NOT have it flare. About the only differences that I know of in all the inverted models are that the IL-11A air pump NRV cannot be removed if it fails, and the IL-1 has a Coleman style air pump handle. This is for all those with a built into the fount air pump. Now the green Thermos variant has the air pump/fuel cap all in one. That pump can be trouble. A friend of mine had that same pump in a Thermos two mantle and the NRV failed while it was burning. He got burned in the resulting "conflagration". But the models with the built in pump have an air stem built into the end of the pump shaft to close off the NRV. The green one does not. The fate of my friends Thermos that burned him is EPIC! As for the original globes, those that have spares guard them like gold bullion. Keeping a mantle free from holes is the only way to stop an original globe from being ruined. Dropping it too I suppose. Generators are a scarce commodity for these too. Clen the one you have and try not to break the pricker needle off the shaft. You spoke of "timing" when taking the fuel system apart. Then there is the "which tube goes where?" issue. I think that as long as the valve stem end of that casting that screws into the fount is pointing straight out, you'll be "timed". Working with your hands "inside the cage" is another thing that is "special" about these. But when they are running they are delightful. Aside from their ROAR!!! They sound like they are on "full afterburner". Good luck on your fettle. Bob "Pretty maids all in a row."
I found that starting these was a real trial. I tried more and more heat with a blow torch up throug the globe and always got serious flaring and smoke. Then I read the instructions and thought I might as well try to Instant light one. This was one of those moments when my flabber was totally ghasted because with a match under the mantle the damn thing lit sweetly and ran up to a nice steady burn so I could then open right up. Not a hint of flare or smoke. Quite why you can get these burners seriously hot and they won't run but from a cold start they do is beyond me. Give it a try. ::Neil::
Neil and Bob, I have been following the instructions for the Kamplite IL-11A and B (10 pump stroke difference between them, different pump diameter/stroke volume? smaller air space on the old one? odd) Is there a Thermos version available anywhere? The instructions are sparce at best. I realize the fuel air system operates differently. As I understand the operation from looking at it, during startup, the tiny hole in the feed tube supplies fuel and the top of the tube supplies air until back pressure from vaporization reduces total flow rate to the point that only fuel is fed. So trying to throttle it with the valve and needle will only limit atomization of the fuel and flooding the generator. Sound right? Some photos: Mike
Hi Mike, I think that perhaps keeping the pressure low enough to get fuel flow for light off might have merit. But once it's running in a steady state pump it up HARD! Yours appears to be running quite nicely in the second image. The one thing that I have found is to rotate the tip cleaner several times before you light one off. Then open the valve enough to hear it "spit" followed by a QUICK closure. Rotate the tip cleaner again. Then just crack the valve to light it. These take a bit of time to get that generator tube HOT. It's not right next to the mantle like on a Coleman or a "right side up" lantern. Keeping the "belch" confined to the burner section is damned near impossible. Hence the blackened white plate. But if you use the Coleman "1/4 turn" philosophy" you'll lose all the tank pressure waiting for the fuel to get to the generator. Especially if it has a full fuel load. Everyone that has one goes through the same thing. It's the nature of being a "donuteer". Pumping a hanging lit lantern is "special" too. Bob
Hi Bob, I really appreciate the input from you and Neil. It's a joy to talk to folks who really know their stuff. All those photos were taken within 20 seconds of each other and it's just the flash and camera modes that make them look different. The output was the same. It is a bit quirky to get lit. I have found in my efforts that mine seems to light best at high(40 pumps)pressure and run best at medium(25 pumps). Sadly the two are not reversed so I could light on low and pump it up after. The atomization is much better for lighting at the higher pressure with no flaring at all on this one. Unfortunately bleeding off pressure after it's generating is a procedure I'm not gonna do for obvious reasons. At least not without a fire suit. I'll tear it down again today and check the valve assembly. If that's clear, I'm going to try to fabricate a generator with a smaller jet to see if I can get that maximum brightness without messing with the cleaning lever. If I get time, I'll post a video on youtube that shows exactly what I'm dealing with reference the higher light output when I tweak the cleaning lever. To the shop, Mike
Hi Mike, If you are having to partially restrict the gas flow with the pricker needle to get max brightness that means that the gas tip is severely worn. However doing this will increase the gas velocity between the needle and the orifice and cause even more wear. This being a single mantle lantern perhaps the same gas tip size as Coleman 200A(#6)would be a good fit. If you do manage to build a replacement be sure to post your results. Good luck! Bob
Hey Bob, That's the first thing I thought as well, but this lantern has had VERY little use. When I pulled the generator on initial teardown, it looked almost brand new. The gas flow completely shuts off when when the needle is fully extended. That's why I'm in such a quandary about this. My assumption(I know) is that if the gas tip were worn, there would be leakage around the cleaning needle. Is this accurate? Will Coleman burner caps fit these? Does the gas tip unscrew from the generator? Don't want to try to unscrew something and screw it up. Do you know of a Thermos instruction manual for this or a 8321 available anywhere? I'll keep you posted on my progress. Probably more than you want. HA! Mike
Hi Mike, That burner cap will unscrew from the cast piece. The threads are completely different in size and pitch from a Coleman. Because there is no burner screen these tend to "pop" when shutting them down. This can cause a blown mantle. The "remedy" is to turn off the flame with the cleaning needle then close the valve. They still pop a bit but not to the degree when you just close the valve. I toyed with the idea of having an adapter nipple made to use a Coleman burner cap for a 200A. But I never pursued it. The other thing I did with my "users" is to "tune" the burner cap. I used a pin punch to carefully bend the burner plate holes inward to redirect the flame jets toward the bottom of the mantle. It doesn't take much. This was done to keep them from blowing a flame jet toward the globe in the event of a mantle failure with a hole. SAVE THE GLASS! Bob
Ok, I successfully(kind of) fashioned a generator from a milspec generator, a flaring tool, tubing bender, and some aluminum washers. Burns very bright but no cleaning feature. I bent the generator up into the chimney and back down into the mixing chamber. It's a pretty rough looking job, but it DOES WORK. Here it is running on the bent up milspec generator next to my 220 slant. This isn't apples to apples, but the inverted lantern is much brighter with this generator. It has a thorium mantle whereas the 220 has non thorium #21s. Next up, I'm getting some 3/8 o.d. brass tubing and will fab a "proper" one soon. I'll keep you posted and will update with some photos. Mike
Here are some pics of my milspec generator retrofit on my Thermos 8319 donut and a teardown of it. I used a tubing bender, a flaring tool, some copper wire and some washers to coax the milspec generator to work with this lantern. It work amazing well. It actually burns brighter than the stock generator, but the loss of the cleaning function makes this a backup and I won't be using this unless I have to in the future. If I were to do it again, I'd route it differently, but it works. I used the flaring tool to expand the flare to the larger size valve body. The washers were used to fill the gap from the much smaller milspec diameter. The copper wire was inserted to keep the flare centered in the nut. I ran with this setup for several hours last night and had no issues. It took a while to light but didn't flare at all. Here are the teardown photos. It's actually an easy lantern to take apart and reassemble. There is more gap between the generator and the burner manifold inlet than I like, so I firmly packed some graphite tape around the generator to fill it. What's the burn time on a full tank with these? I estimate that I've run this for 11 hours and it still had fuel in it. I really like this lantern. It's my new favorite. I really like the shadowless output. Whatever I did, it worked. Perhaps the graphite? I no longer have to mess with the cleaning lever to attain maximum output. Feel free to question, comment or complain. Mike
Hi Mike, OK, there were two different part numbers for these generators based on lantern brand name. Both were the same generator. One was Kamplite(S7707) the other was Thermos(772). Here is measured data from a NOS 772: Tube diameter-.375" Tube OAL-2.608" Pricker wire-.00075" I would "guess" that the gas tip is close to a Coleman "V" which according to Matt Reids chart is .008". That's a tight fit for pricker wire clearance I know. I have never had to "pack" the generator-burner housing socket. In fact I have noticed the fit is somewhat sloppy. Are they drawing "secondary" combustion air around that tube? I don't know. Though your MilSpec generator may work, you're hamstrung for tip cleaning. If this NOS gas tip is larger than a "normal" single mantle such as a #6 on a Coleman 200 with a T-66(.007") this could account for the "slop". There is no documentation for the 252 generator gas tip. That flare connection you made to the tip cleaner housing makes me nervous. Oversized flares on small tubing are prone to split. Be careful. Bob
Hi Mike, GOOD NEWS! I measured the tube of a Coleman 249-299 generator. It's the SAME SIZE OD as the inverted generator. So now if you can acquire one it can be cut down, flared, and perhaps change the gas tip to a "V" or whatever burns best. You seem to be a pretty handy fellow. What about building a new eccentric block that will accept a hooked end pricker rod? Some fellow "donuteers" and I did a "fix" for broken pricker rods that worked. That was to cut a T-66 pricker rod down and then groove the end that locks into the "claw" with a Dremel using a small cut off wheel. It's a real PITA! The redesigned eccentric block would be a better fix IMHO. 249 generators come around on eBay more often than inverted ones do. Haven't seen one of those in at least 3 years. Those that have them guard them like the Holy Grail. Bob
Great info, Bob! I also measured it at 3/8 and it's a better deal to have a replaceable gas tip, so I'll keep my eye out for that 249 genny. I was also leary of the expanded flare and examined it with a magnifier after it was done. I was actually pretty surprised it didn't split. I don't think I'd build an eccentric block. I kinda like the stirrup design and think you were on the money notching the needle shaft. That's how I'd do it also. I don't have a lathe, but I've made stuff similar with a drill press and precision files, though not quite that small. I did a similar generator retrofit dealy with my 519 heater. Those, as you probably know, take G8 generators, which are also hard to come by for less than a first born child. It's a threaded generator whose threads match a 425 generator, so Cut off the business end and silbrazed a lantern generator onto it. Worked fine. I did break my tiny bit off in the process though and need to get some new ones. drilling a hole in the end of a brass rod that diameter was an adventure to be sure. Many a non-spoken word were shouted that day. LOL! I sounded like the Dad in Christmas Story working on his furnace. Did you see my post ref the history paper on the donut lanterns. I can't find it anymore and am trying to track it down. Thought you may have been involved in putting it together along with Fred Kuntz, Terry Marsh, and Neil. Neil says he wasn't involved, so I'm not so sure anymore. Holy Grail indeed. Still looking for globe as well. Thanks for your help, Mike
Hi Mike, If I had a lathe I would be tempted to start making my own gas tips using these. Carbide Micro Drills The next thing would be to get the tap that is the same size/thread as Coleman gas tips. Building generators/vaporizers? Just need the tools and some brass tubing. Some solid stock to close the end. On that 249 genny. I'll bet if you wound a few turns of those springs with Zippo lighter wick that would give you enough restriction to prevent Liedenfrost burning gasoline. Bob
They are pretty proud of those drills. WOW! In the past, I've used fiberglass wick and mechanics wire. Thought I would get some possible corrosion issues, but haven't had any so far. The wire in the Zippo wick would certainly help it keep its shape and not interfere with the needle. Need to find a spool of that. Thanks for the tip. I learned about Liedenfrost syndrome the first time I did a lantern generator with only a homemade coil, no fiber. Then, after the flames died down, I had the eureka moment. "Ahh, so that's why they pack all that stuff in there." LOL! Mike
good evening fellows..i just signed up so i could reply to the post about the Kamplite inverted gas lamp.i'm very active over at Classic Camp Stoves under another name and i'm expecting a package from Ross of the Fettle Box so i can get a couple stoves working. now i just came in from the back yard on this very nice October night after firing up my Kamplite. it sat around for a year or so until i got around to soldering a tiny leak between the pump tube and tank. if there was such a thing as a roaring lamp that would be one!.i was expecting a Coleman hiss. i read over the above post and i did have a bit of a problem getting it lit.i had to work the cleaning needle a few times with the match under the mantle before it blazed up and then settled into a nice and very bright burn. after seeing the break down and some of the problems i might run into i think i'll keep this around for demos and use around the yard.for camping i'll keep to the hissssss. i'll try and post a few photos but the gang at CCS knows i fall behind on my canoe trip shots.
