Nagel Chase Arc Lamp ID Help

Can anyone help Identify the model number of this Nagel Chase Arc lamp?
Perhaps it is model 98 as that is the only lamp listed by Neil with 4 mantle gasoline outside arc ? The metal form though does not match the pictures in Neil's Book though?

Best,
Brian

 

Your lamp is more like the Model No 199. I can't find an exact match to your lamp but the 199 is the closest.

Nagel Chase may have changed the body design by a little, perhaps in the middle 30's.

I nearly bought this lamp. In the end, whilst the seller did the right thing to try and accommodate me price wise, the cost of postage was the killer.

 

From the images I can't tell if this is 78 or 98. The pictures don't show enough to make a positive ID. Model 199 is also possible but that is just the kero version of 98 so they would look the same but a kero lamp would have a generator supplementary heater and I don't see that here. 78 is a central generator system lamp and looks very much the same as 98/199 but will not have an integral generator and pricker. 98 was on sale from about 1912 to at least 1926 so some variation in the design of the casing is perhaps to be expected but those minor variations will not affect the model number. Here are catalogue images showing these 4 mantle arc lamps. From different catalogues and there are differences in the casings but that is just the time related variation. ::Neil::

 

Neil, this might well be a central generator lamp. Looking at the first photo, if that pipe is part of the lamp, this is a central generator lamp. I have only ever seen one Nagel Chase central generator unit, I think it was owned by @dwillie I can't recall if it was complete.

 

Neil & Matty,

Thanks for your assistance.
here are a few more pictures that may help?
My feeling after Neil's comments are it is model 78/199 CG lamp.
Best,

Brian

 

Brian,

It is most certainly a Central Generator lamp and yes, Model 78.

Here is a Nagel Chase Hercules Central Generator unit from 1912 that would typically run these lamps.



For those that aren't aware of Central Generator lamps, the lamps typically, but not always, didn't have a generator on the lamp itself. The Central Generator unit, usually fed by a gasoline filled hollow wire tank, produced the gas for the lamps and the gas was then fed to the lamps by a pipe system. The pipe was more akin to natural gas lamps feed pipes not the standard hollow wire tubing. The Central Generator unit was placed on a wall prior to the first lamp.

Less typically, some systems had a Master Lamp that had a large generator in it and it was this lamp that acted as the Central Generator and other lamps in the system would be fed gas from the Master Lamp. The Master Lamp would have gasoline fed to it via a hollow wire tank.

There are other types of Gas Machines that produced gas for lamps but they are not applicable to this system.

 

I am not familiar with these CG lamps and they are not listed in the PLC although I am aware of them and sort of how they operate. I assume the generator creates a form of Liquid Petroleum Gas and likely at a regulated pressure. Is it perhaps possible to run such a lamp on an available LPG such as Calor propane or butane? ::Neil::

 

@Mackburner I just dropped in at the time you were posting so good timing.

I'm not exactly sure what initially draws the gas to the lamps. It must be something to do with heat and air pressure. The early Arc lamps and Tube hollow wire lamps had essentially the same system though these CG units will have a burner constantly heating the generator. I can assure you, they are probably the brightest of all lamps. They really produce a tremendous suction of the gas and if you have everything right, you will see a fantastic light given off.

If you look at the photo of the Central Generator above, you will see a 'snorkel' air tube on the outside of the unit. You can bet that where the burner goes into the air tube inside of the unit, there will be a gap between the jet (tip) of the burner and the pipe that takes the gas to the lamps. The gas that has been generated will mix with air in that gap. You see the same sort of science done with the common Gloria lamp and hollow wire heads.

I have quite a few patents of CG's and have one that uses a wick lamp burner to heat coils of hollow wire tubing thus vapourising the gasoline.

I have little doubt that natural gas or propane - whatever it is called in your countries - would work on these lamps. I'd use a regulator and tweak as you go.

This illustration of an Acorn Brass patent might interest you.

 

Makes sense. So they will be high pressure generators up to the gas tip and then after mixing with air be a low pressure system which is pretty much how any pressure lamp works. I would expect some serious light as well. 78 was rated at 1250cp up to 1914 and then at 2000cp to 1919. ::Neil::

 

I have been looking to see if I have the Nagel Chase CG patent. I don't think I have unfortunately.

Yes, 2,000 CP rated lamps, incredible.

I have two identical Hollow wire lamps here. I don't know whom made them. I was looking at one the other day and simply couldn't believe the burner. It is a beast. I expect they will put out some very serious light. The burners are enclosed by a white enamelled cowling and hood. I'd think the enamel, which is excellent on one of the lamps and very good on the other, would be tested to its limits by the heat that will be produced by these lamps. I haven't a clue when I'll get around to fettling them but when I do I'll post a photo of one lit.

 

They are different... well worth fettling for sure...

 

Nagel Chase Lamp arrived today from Sunny California along with uninvited guests....

Interesting burner set up.

Arrow at top is location where small 1/8" pipe would attach



Gas enters at top opening just at the control valve at top of lamp,
travels down to fitting under hood which has a gap where gas jumps across mixing w/ air just before traveling down to the burners.







Mixing gap


down pipe w/ guests on board


down pipe now cleaned off , screw at right keeps the pipe centered within the hood and it's head is accessible just under the hood for adjustment.


1/4" or 1/8" gas entry pipe location






additional views of the assembly showing interior and mixing gap location under hood.



Do we still think this is a CG Lamp?








Best,

Brian

 

Here are the missing images

 

Who were the "uninvited" guests??

 

Wasps...

 

Is it threaded? It is interesting to see those two connections. My poor old eyes can't tell if they are threaded on the outside. A more precise measurement would help too.

 

Matty,
The 1/4" pipe inlet is indeed threaded and has an interior chamfer for the fitting. It is threaded on the exterior or the connection for a nut which would also capture the flange of the expanded 1/8 copper flex tubing.


Georg,
Must be WASPS !
There was a great big nest clod of rock hard mud up inside the lamp, and in every open orifice was plugged with hard mud.
This must be some type of Wasp nest, mud dobber from Southern California where this lamp was hanging in a barn forever.

The big clod was the size of a big mandarin orange



Watch out For un-invited Guests!


Best,

Brian

 

Nagel Chase did run an outside fuel line from the valve to the burner on a number of their hollow wires. I have them here so I know. This could be a hollow wire. The large diameter pipe isn't normally associated with hollow wire lamps. You can see the large diameter pipe on the CG image above and it is not on the hollow wire lamp image as previously posted.

One thing that crossed my mind was, the inlets may be there for the hollow wire version and remain on the CG systems but are blank - fuel can't pass? Just a way of saving tooling kind of thing?

Have you looked to see if there is a generator with packing in it?

I'm rooting for this to be a hollow wire. Also, I've enjoyed the photos.

 

This likely is a CG lamp but I note the following.

The gap fitting which is under the lift up hood is where presurized liquid gasoline would atomize into the air I think. Does this indicate that this lamp was set up for liquid fuel and not vaporized fuel?

There is a single pipe which comes down from the top of the lamp in center of the housing. This pipe begins at the valve. The threaded opening which was at first filled with packed hard mud is now cleared and I am able to blow a small amount of air through this opening.

I don't see a generator ? could this be inside the pipe which runs down the center of the housing?
also all the bits are ceased up hard and silver soldered in place I am unsure how the burner assembly would be taken apart for removal and cleaning at this point.

There is no pricker though there is a tiny hole in the dead center of the burner which would have been used as a pricker opening on some models. I saw a hand held pricker in the catalog from 1915 as an accessory. perhaps one of these would be used to clear the atomizer opening?
Pricker is pictured below.



Best

Brian

 

The fuel is generally vapourised in generators. I can't find the cord to my camera so I can't load photos to the PC otherwise I would take photos which would help with descriptions.

I can't think of any lamps that used atomised fuel except things like the early gravity fed wall lamps. There are a lot of appliances that use atomised fuel rather than vapourised fuel but I wouldn't expect this lamp to be one of them. If this lamp is a CG lamp, the fuel was vapourised in the CG burner unit, remotely of the lamp and piped as gas to the lamp.

In the following image of Neil's you can see the generator and the pricker knob at the base of the generator. The pricker is a push pull type. You can also see the hollow wire tube connection where the fuel is delivered to the generator.

 

I think that if one enlarges the picture above of model 98 you can see a bulls eye right below the hanger loop on the pipe and above the lamp hood where the control valve opens and closes the fuel off and on. This I think is the same sort of opening or threaded pipe nipple which is on the lamp we are looking at. This is where the copper flex fuel inlet pipe attaches to the lamp. In the drawing it is shown directly facing out and so the center would appear as a black dot indicating it is an opening.

There is no opening under the hanger loop of this lamp blanked off. I believe the only place fuel can get into this lamp is at the 1/4" nipple fitting through a 1/8" flex pipe.

Will take more photo's tomorrow.

Best,

Brian

 

Is it possible the central tube is the generator? there is not a pricker at least not now. The globe support rod is solid. Would a person lighting such a lamp raise a torch on a rod up into the chimney to heat the pipe ? the globe support bracket is open so that such a thing could be done?

Best,

Brian

 

I've just had a thought. I wonder if the larger pipe is to hold what was once a fuel tank above the lamp?

 

I would expect the generator to be the rod that goes vertical from the burner. usually, the pricker extends through the bottom opening of the globe. So, check that rod that extends downwardly from the burner.

 

Something like this lamp of Neil's.

 

I have endeavored to draw out what the burner looks like since it is still enclosed inside the lamp casing.



Here is a drawing which approximates what the burner would look like if it were out of the casing.

Here is a cutaway of what I think the interior of the "Mixing Chamber" looks like. I don't know if there are multiple gas openings or only one, but there is at least one.
There is a special bolt used to adjust the amount of air which enters the mixing chamber. It might slightly differ but I think this is fairly accurate.

​

Here is a close up of the air entry opening w/ special adjusting screw/bolt and curved opening.



The special screw/bolt is chamfered on it's head to an angle which would match the air gap opening.


Air entry opening shown




Inlet pipe nipple at top of burner where fuel enters the lamp. I can blow air through this opening and it passes through the burner so is not blanked off.






Best, from sunny Seattle,

Brian

 

Great drawings. They explain a lot that I wouldn’t understand otherwise.

Cheers

Tony

 

The photos of the the hanger have helped. I have not seen such a design. I have just spent an hour going through the considerable amount of Nagel Chase catalogues and paperwork that I have and the design is not shown. I thought the pipe had been in an accident and had been bent. It looks fairly straightforward now that this is a hollow wire lamp.


It is possible that this image describes what I assume is the same type of gas/air mixer as your lamp? "247. Gas Mixing Casting" (notice my question mark. I'm not stating it as fact) This no 99 lamp shows a pricker at the bottom which is lacking in your lamp? Usually, on Nagel Chase lamps, the tube with the pricker on the end of it is the generator.





The following image has also had me puzzled from the beginning. It looks like the top nut is a jet? Again, I just thought it was out of whack, someone had turned it around. It doesn't look possible for it to be around the wrong way. Can you describe it's function?

 

I suspect this is indeed 247 Mixing Casting from the note on your catalog





More Pictures and more explanations on the warmest day of the year so far in Seattle.


I have now oriented the photo's properly so shown as though the lamp was hanging. Also a side note in my opinion the early lamps from Nagel Chase were not badged like the one which belongs to Neil. I have a number of them myself none are bagged. I think this may be of the early production w/out badge other than the great porcelain stenciled on name.

The "Mixing Chamber is a single casting. The casting starts where the down pipe is joined to it at it's top.
The casting interior makes a 90 degree bend and 1/3rd of the casting passes out through the side of the vertical casing of the lamp where it emerges under the lift up bonnet/hood
The casting has jets or holes in the now horizontal pipe allowing the gas to pass into the lower "Mixing Chamber". (I cannot see them but put a small wire in and can feel one.)
The outside lower end of the mixing chamber is open to the air and shaped like a horn on top of a carburetor.



The special screw/bolt can be adjusted toward the mixing chamber or away from it by means of the hex end on interior or exterior. The bolt is captured at the end of the casting.
I assume this bolt would be used to adjust the amount and flow of air into the mixing chamber. I assume that this also determines how "rich" with fuel the mix is and probably how clean and bright the lamp would run?

Sorry I wrote on the photo upside down, should be fine Down Under.....


Best,

Brian

 

Here are photo's of the lower burner assembly. I noted before there is a quite small hole drilled at the center of the casting which is where a pricker would pass if it were installed in the support rod.


Drilled hole at top of rod location blanked by globe support rod.



This lamp though has a solid support rod and appears original but possibly is not?

It is logical that there is no pricker in the globe support because it cannot be used since there has been a Mixing Casting used and the pipe loops away at 90 degrees from the lower burner.


Best,

Brian