I wondered what people's thoughts were on this. Let's say you collect all the required components to rebuild a particular manufacturer and model of lamp, is it genuine? To clarify, all parts must be correct for whichever model it is? Will the lamp you build or assemble be a genuine XXXXXX, whether that's a Tilley, Coleman or Bialaddin etc?
Mmmmmm ........ that’s a hard one. If all the genuine parts were from the same era, anatomically correct and installed as the model should be, then I vote yes. I guess there could be a moral issue for some but for me that would be mitigated somewhat by the correct dating of each genuine part. Basically we do that now when we fettle a lantern, the building of a lantern could be viewed as a more extreme fettle. Thoughts anyone. Cheers Pete
Can't really see what the problem is, it's only like buying a classic car like an e-type jag that's in a poor state and restoring it by buying spares from a breakers yard or online to restore it. I guess one of the problems may be the replica parts now offered on online, but mostly they look different enough.
On the other hand, s-p, wasn't there a right carry-on when, a few years ago, Jaguar discovered there was a space of 6 vehicle numbers in the range of lightweight E-types. They decided to make a further six, absolutely no expense spared, and allocated them the six spare numbers. They were hugely expensive, over a million pounds each IIRC, yet they were refused entry into classic car shows on the grounds that they weren't genuine. So being assembled in the Jaguar factory with genuine Jaguar parts and bearing vehicle numbers in the correct range allocated to them by Jaguar wasn't sufficient for them to be genuine. You may also care to consider the situation with Peppercorn A1 Pacific railway locomotive Tornado 60163. Is it a replica, reproduction or what? The A1 Steam Locomotion Trust which made it from the original plans and incorporated all modern refinements to allow it to run on the main railway network describe it as 'the next one in the line' - there were 50 original A1s and Tornado is the 51st... Edit - the Jaguar story:- https://www.evo.co.uk/jaguar/16191/watch-12million-jaguar-lightweight-e-type-driven Edit - the Tornado story:- The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust 60163 Tornado
Good caveats david. What both cases surely point towards are construction of replicas, which is different to trying to restore items from an era with parts from that era. Would you argue that the steam engines fred dibnah restored were genuine ? Some parts had to be fabricated eg. certain plates, that have to withstand pressure for safety reasons. He also tried to make the repairs / fabrications as close to the original as possible. The E-type and the tornado must surely be a similar vein to the modern korean production of vapalux lanterns?
To my opinion it could be OK if you put together original parts all from the same era, following the documents (descriptions, plans, etc) whatever will show that the device is in it's "original state". Also some minor repairs, such as replacing worn parts with those fitting perfectly the original should be OK. But any type of major replicas, such as newly fabricated shades, tanks, complete vaporizers etc. and also "improvements" intended for a better performance are not OK in my view. For any product with serial numbers the problem would surely worsen. Here it is almost impossible to state that the overall serial number is still valid, if major parts have been put together from different sources, even if they would be "original" from that same era. Just my 5 cents...
To be specific, I was thinking of a situation where you have three and a half examples of the same but well used old lanterns, none of them with all functional parts but from all the bits and pieces you manage to build 2 complete lamps.
@ColinG No problems that I can see, all parts correct and in the same era, no problems at all. Go for it! Cheers Pete
I’d have to say it would be Ok. The alternative would be to say that once the seals or vapouriser was changed it was not original.
@ColinG another interesting thought provoking thread. Me, perfectly happy to blend period lantern parts to make a whole one. I wouldn't have many working lanterns if I didn't! I can see with the @David Shouksmith examples, especially Tornado, that there is a difference. I consider Tornado a "new" engine, even though it was built off the original plans etc. I cannot say it is purely rational, just based on the date of build. For me it makes it different from the other 50 in its class. However it doesn't stop my enjoyment of seeing her in action.
Well, I once built an X246B 500 series using a longer burner spigot machined up for me by a friend so that it could accommodate the larger 500cp mantle. I did this on January 1st that year whenever it was, so for a time, it was the newest Tilley lantern in the world, given the Tilley factory would have been closed for the holidays. I've no idea whether it's a replica, reproduction, ersatz, genuine (but for one identical part), non-genuine, fake or what. I did light it and it ran sort-of OK but with greyish areas on the mantle. I presumed at the time that this was due to the vapouriser (a standard 606 as Tilley fitted to the 500 series) not being able to fill the larger mantle completely. I wasn't prepared to pump up the standard X246B tank (again, as fitted by Tilley to the 500 series) beyond 80 pump-strokes - Tilley suggested around 150 IIRC to get the full 500cp. It still lurks in my garage to this day - status undetermined. I shall try to retrieve it and waste the day pratting about with it... Edit: I now recall, I then did the same thing with an ex-military Vapalux on the grounds that the tanks were much stronger and would withstand higher internal pressures and I could pump them up until my thumb hurt. Again, with a limited degree of success, it has to be said...
i believe the correct term would be 'modified' , similar to how people start off with a standard car and then add to it to improve performance, either by changing parts to uprate them or fabricating parts eg. spoilers, body kit etc. could we possibly see a re- mapped tilley, a possible turbo, a supercharger, the possibilities are endless!!!
Yes, 'modified' - that seems appropriate for my two lanterns. In the meantime, I've found a Tilley 500 series box so I suppose I must have the genuine article somewhere. Inside was the instruction sheet which quote "20 strokes of pump" for priming followed by "130 strokes" after 30 seconds, thus 150 pump-strokes altogether. Interestingly, it quotes a 606 vapouriser, 218 burner, 164 mantle and SP3 service pack which are the standard 350cp parts. Thus, initially at least, the extra 150cp was achieved by almost doubling tank pressure. Then they have the nerve to state:- "Note: CARE MUST BE TAKEN NOT TO OVER-PUMP" - the cheeky beggars! If I haven't already lodged this in the library, I'll try to do it later... P.S. I did actually "re-map" most of my Tilley X246Bs - embarrassingly over two dozen - the brass tanks were weighed in at my local scrapyard, the rusty steel bits went to the tip and I kept the globes which are still cluttering up one of my kitchen cupboards...
I'd say its generally considered genuine, provided you could get all the 'replacement' parts period-correct for the specific brands/models. To be realistic, if the original parts are gone, they're gone forever. Next, we could get the missing parts fabricated to some extents or have them replaced with reproduction bits and pieces. That way, at least we could make them appear as original as we could but unfortunately, that doesn't make it genuine.
