Hi, a friend of mine found these founts at the rubbish tip this morning they only have two handle screws on the fount, one of them has a pressure nipple and the other has no nipple I am assuming they are very early Tilley, I would love to be able to find a globe cage, globe and hood. I haven't seen pumps like these either. Any ideas would be welcome ?
They are WW2 period PL 53 founts. Nice enough find and not too hard to locate parts to complete. ::Neil::
Hello, they are both Tilley PL-53 tanks from the second world war period, the control cock on the left tank may have a brass knob. Some of those tanks are made from brass and others are made from steel and yet others are made from a mixture of the 2. That was because of wartime shortages, the pumps appear to be of good quality, but being wartime pumps they may be part steel. It would be best to pressure test the tanks before buying parts, but if the tanks are sound then I can help out with the handles/hangers. The link below shows what that model looks like complete. http://0flo.com/index.php?threads/20
To see a variety of Tilley pumps click on the link below, Jeff. http://www.classicpressurelamps.com/forum/showgallery.php?fid/29/
Jeff, I have run a magnet over the Founts and pumps and there appears to be no steel. The pressure test was conducted by removing the valve and holding my thumb over the top of the Fount and pumping the fount partly submerged. One of the founts shows a small leak around one of the frame screws. The other one seems fine. The one with the leak would of been the nicer looking fount. The one without the leak is the one without the pressure nipple and a small "character" dent. Does the screw unthread out of the fount so I can repair ?
On further investigation one of the founts had 1/2 in frame t nuts on it, and I transferred the nuts to the other fount that was leaking, this has slowed the leak down to very nearly nothing. Maybe I could seal this leak off with the frame screws with some sort of sealant as I doubt these areas would suffer from heat ?
Just a small question, could the one on the left without the pressure nipple be a Kayen fount and the one on the right an EX100 fount? And if not why? Astro.
G'day Astro, you are quite correct in your assumptions, The tank on the left is different to the one on the right. One has a pressure nipple and the other doesn't, typical Kayen the other give away is the nuts on the frame threads are typical Kayen. I also noticed that underneath the founts they are folded differently. However both pumps are identical and don't have any Tilley markings and one of the valves does not have Tilley stamped on the knob. Both pumps will work in either tank. Usually the Kayem Tank won't accept a Tilley pump due to the diameter of the opening. However the tank is the same between both early model Tilley 100 and 63. Now I need the rest of the bits to restore these lanterns. Off for the big drive to TW Sands tomorrow founts in hand.
Both pumps are identical as discussed and are beautifully made out of brass, but no Tilley stamp. Weird eh ?
Those pumps don't look quite right for Tilley. Hard to say why but I suspect Kayen for both. Those handle bolts are fitted from inside. They are a standard machine screw with a bolt head just screwed in place and then sealed with solder. They can't drop in because of the small outer ring nut so all you need to do to re seal is clean the area up, part fill the tank with water and then heat the bolt and run a little fresh solder around the nut. ::Neil::
They may be Kayen tanks and the pumps are different to any Tilley pumps which I have seen, but Tilley made such a variety that I cannot be certain. Do you have an actual Tilley lamp to try them in? Tilley made the wartime PL-53 tank with and without the pressure indicator and the same style of tank was used on the EX-100. The control cock knob which is not marked Tilley may be made from brass, as I mentioned in my first post on this subject. If it is, then unscrew the gland nut on the control cock and put a magnet on the threads which the gland nut screws onto. Many of the wartime Tilley control cocks which were fitted with the brass knobs also had steel threads for the gland nut. I have found many of those control cocks and they were all on Military PL-53 lamps. I did not realise that you are in Australia!
When I first saw the tanks I did think Kayen, except for the pressure indicator. Seeing the pumps, I think you might have a Kayen AP2 tank and a Tilley EX100 tank. The pumps actually look like two Kayen pumps, most likely from Nettlefold. Here's a picture of the tank of my HL7 (I don't have an AP2 from Nettlefold). Should probably have been from a different angle but that's all I've got here. Just for comparison, here'a a picture of my EX100 tank. Unfortunately it's missing the knob off the pump. If you need any different photos it's going to be tough. Both lamps are back home in Bundaberg and I wont be there again until July next year.
Thankyou all for your help with this your knowledge in this area is very impressive. G'day Jeff, I have just been out to my workshop this morning (brrrrr freezing at 3am Ozzi time) to check your theory. Yes the two pumps don't fit into the Tilley fount so they must both be Kayem. I wonder why the founts are configured differently. My next question is what would the lantern of looked like utilising these Kayem founts. Would it of still been a pl 53 or a ex100?. And is the project still worth the exercise utilising Kayem founts. It appears that Kayem is very collectable ?
I didn't know that about the Tilley / Kayen pumps either. Good thing to know. Does this mean that both tanks are Kayen? If so I didn't know that Kayen used the pressure indicator. Another interesting point to know. You can bet they would have been configured as an AP2. There's a few of them in the reference library. If Sands in Melbourne don't have the parts then John Gannon of Associated Kerosene Oil Lamps in Braidwood might be able to help.
What does "Kayen" stand for, by the way? That it is a name made from how it sound when you pronounce the abbreviation KN is not so hard to understand, but what is KN short for?
Ok, it looks to me that the hood on the AP2 and the frame is the same as the ex100 and pl53, So it looks like I am rebuilding 2 Kaymen AP2's. How exciting !!! By the way one of the control valves, even though identical has Tilley embossed into the knob. The other one is slightly bigger with no branding and is bakelite. Confusing !!!! Thanks so much for your help everyone, I will post some pictures as I progress with this project
G'day Tonebone, the link below shows Kayen lamps. Perhaps it would be an idea to hold onto those tanks etcetera, just in case you find any Kayen lamps which need parts. Kayen did make some of their AP2 tanks from steel, so it's very possible that you will find one which has a knackered tank and those pumps and control cocks could be used on their table lamps too. Did you test the gland nut threads with a magnet? Jeff. http://www.classicpressurelamps.com/forum/showgallery.php?fid/436/
Jeff, both gland shafts and nuts are brass the control knob on one is stamped Tilley the other is a larger knob and is un identified bakelite. The other thing I have just Identified is that the fount with the pressure nipple has gold paint the other fount is not painted and appears to be brass
As you mention, the name is the sound of the two letters KN. The lamps were produced by two companies, Kopsen in Sydney and Nettlefold in Melbourne. Hence the K and N. The lamps were supposedly identical but there are minor differences that can sometimes identify which factory they came from. It's not unusual to see Kayen stuff with Tilley parts as most of it was interchangeable (it was all Tilley copies). Is it possible that the strange bakelite knob is just something that was handy at the time? Maybe from a radio or similar.
Of the Kayen products I have here 4-AP2 all have hex stud base + 2-HL7 and the bottom rim of the tank is 20mm high,brass pricker knobs(all) pump cylinders o/dia 18.2mm Tilly PL53 and EX4 bottom rim of tanks are 12mm high, pump cylinders o/dia 17.4mm. hope this is of help
I believe that the Kopsen made Kayen have a high bottom rim and the Nettlefold have a low rim. The Nettlefold shape is almost the same as Tilley. I have been going through my pictures and found another AP2 from Nettlefold that has a bakelite knob (not Tilley) like the one shown. Could be original Kayen?
Well that made me look again and 1 HL7 and the HR11 Bowl fire has the Kopsen label under tank Damm does that mean I now need Netlefold Kayens too..............
You didn't think you were finished collecting did you. Actually that's good to hear as more confirmation of the theory.
Thank you all, for your excellent information, wow. I am away from home at the moment staying in Melbourne. I will take the founts to T W Sands today and see what they think. Apparently they do some really amazing reproduction hoods that may suit my purpose given I don't think I am going to find originals. I also need to obtain frames vaporizers and globes. Should be a real cheap process lol!. If you guys know of any spare Kayem parts let me know. I still am confused about the fount with the nipple and evidence of gold paint, if it is a Tilley, why won't a Tilley pump screw into it. Did the other company you mentioned that made founts have a nipple and use gold paint?
If a Tilley pump wom't fit, then that tank is not a Tilley. If you had wanted PL-53 handles/hangers, then I could have helped out, but for Kayen parts I cannot. Keep hunting and putting the word around for lamps in general and who knows what may turn up, Jeff.
G'day, whilst in Melbourne I managed to purchase these reproduction bits for this project. Hood and Reflector for very early Tilley / Kayem. I now need to source a frame (with squiggly handle), 169 Vapourizer, globe, wire globe frame, brass hood screws, burner and the wire that attaches from the hood to the globe. Maybe some of the early Tilley collectors in Australia may have these bits in their spare parts bins that they don't need> I have talked to T W Sands and they are keeping there eyes peeled for me Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
