The text on the tank "BY LICENCE OF PETROMAX" leads me to assume that Petromax itself did not manufacture the lamp. Even the bonnet does not say "Made in Germany" as usual, but "LICENSED GERMANY". As you can easily see, there is no nickel on the entire lamp (with the exception of the pressure gauge). I have revised my first assumption that it is made of copper and also my second assumption that it is brass with a very high copper content. Only the tank, bonnet, needle, rapid lever, pump knob and handwheel are signed "Petromax". Unlike many other clones, all threads are top quality and original Petromax parts fit very well. The pressure gauge looks like an original part, but has no signature. The carrying frame has the typical aluminium emblem of a Petromax lamp. There is no sign of nickel plating anywhere on or in the lamp. I can also see that the flame tube in the spirit bowl is continuous. The carrying handle also has a copper layer. I had not seen the fluting on the pump cap before. It is very fine and precise. Another new feature for me is the bead on the upper part of the mixing chamber. The mixing tube has no paddle and you can still see the impressions of the the taper towards the nozzle. This picture shows very clearly why I believe that this lamp was possibly nickel-plated. With all soldering there is a copper layer over the solder, as is usually done before nickel plating. I therefore believe that something went wrong with the nickel plating and that this nickel layer has disappeared very quickly and thoroughly. But I can't know or explain it. Reinhard has found two other lamps in this copper design on the net. One in Romania (at an exorbitantly high price) that looks like a twin of my lamp and has the same licence markings on the tank and canopy. Unlike my lamp, which is fitted with an AIDA glass, the lamp offered in Romania has a Petromax signed glass with what I think are Arabic letters. If you are interested, I can post a link here. When cleaning the base, parts of the copper layer have come loose. Brass can then be seen underneath. The pump base valve is made of solid rubber, without the brass sleeve I am used to. After the first ignition, the bonnet slowly turned mouse grey because the copper took on this colour. After a little rubbing with a cloth, the bonnet became a little shiny again and the brass plate appears in some places. I bought this lamp in the Ruhr area of Germany from a motorbike-riding miner. miner. A very good contact, "Thank you! Michael" What I had not noticed, "Thanks to Reinhard", unlike an original Petromax handwheel, the writing on it is not recessed and coloured, but curved outwards. It lights up beautifully and brightly straight away. It appears to be a genuine original licensed clone and not a replica. Is that the case? My question is, who manufactured the lamp and where? Why are there lamps on which the nickel layer is no longer present? "Thank you!" for your interest!
Now this one looks like a high quality production lantern in almost exact replication of the genuine German Petromax by Graetz. They only made some minor but deliberate changes so that it isn't 100% exact. They obviously did not 'try' to copy but probably licensed to manufacture it. I have no information on this lantern. It is the first one for me. Did you check every feature in detail? I can't see too clearly from pictures alone. By raw appearance in comparison to the real post-WWII Petromax, it looks almost like those made during the transitional design changes between the later 1950s to early 1960s. Probably, Reinhard, Jorg or WimVe might know better on this one. The preheater torch lever looks a little different? If I'm not wrong, the non-cross hatched knurled nuts for securing the bail/handle only lasted till around 1961. The main vent holes on the hood appear somewhat more like rounded squares/rectangularish compared to the later Petromax. They resemble more to the earlier designs. The horizontally-ribbed frame- collar/cage is closer to the last transitional change of its original patent. Can't remember the date of that patent. I've never seen a cross-hatched pattern knurling on Petromax pump caps. Certainly not pre-War. I think it might not even be recent or modern. The modern ones usually wouldn't fit that nicely . By intuition, I don't think these could be found in the Far East. Seems rare. I'm just not too sure. Also, the vaporizer does not have that characteristic central reinforcing rib like the more recent models. Its more like the earlier ones. Not sure about the J-mixer tube. It doesn't have the venturi shaped constriction near the fuel-air inlet. Interesting specimen.
I only know that at least the Aida would have the Made in License' stamp/embossing. License holder? Aidagesellschaft/Graetz KG or Graetz AG or some others? Was anyone from Hirschhorn had actually been involved? Perhaps Neil(Mackburner) might know of some historical details. I don't see any stamp date codes or numbers at the fount's bottom for this one...
First of all, many thanks MYN! Yes, I checked all the functions and without detailed knowledge and the imprints on the tank and hood I would have thought it was an original Petromax. I couldn't find any dates or serial numbers. The bottom of the tank is in no way scratched and as good as new. I will be happy to provide more detailed photos on request.
To me this looks like a lamp that has been copperplated and not a lamp where the nickel has come loose exposing a potential copper layer underneath it. I'm not so sure that a copper layer was plated under the nickel layer of the petromax lamps.
Yes, it could be GuidoK. Speculation on: It could be that there was never a nickel layer. It could also be that the copper content in the brass is so high that it doesn't even need a copper layer.
Copper is not always needed as an adhesion layer. Most nickels in itself are already very good adhesion layers. But it depends on the base metal and type of nickel. If copper is used as a strike, it's typically very thin, like 0,1µm or so. Too thin to give a base metal a copper appearance when the nickel coating delaminates. Also, when a coating delaminates, it's usually not on the complete object, but only in certain areas. And of course there is copper plating present on pieces that are normally not plated, so that has definately been added. You can get a copper appearance on the bronze parts by etching away part of the alloy metal on the surfce (zinc etc). But you won't get a shiny surface (more like a matte finish, it's an etch), and you cant polish that because it's way too thin (a few atoms), so that's also not at hand here.
Here are two more photos with details. On one of them you can clearly see that the lettering on both the pump knob and the handwheel is raised and not recessed. On the burner lever, apart from the copper color, there is no difference for me to the original Petromax levers. The discoloration is clearly visible on the struts of the support frame. In the higher temperature range it is brass-colored, in the lower temperature range it is copper-colored. This discoloration only occurred after the first glow. I am glad that there is a second such lamp in Romania, here is the link to it: Vintage Petromax 827 250cp | eBay
Wait, do I see an 11-pointed star on the logo??? These can also point to the notorious earlier copies from the Far-East... As far as I'm aware-of, quite sometime after the Petromax manufacturing in Germany ended, the rights have been transfered to Kaiping Silveray Metal and Plastic Products Company Ltd. (Hong Kong). Would any Santromax and Silveray products be similar to this lantern? Heinz might have imported these to Germany. That was before Pelam took over. Others might know better regarding the history.
Wowww, "Thanks to your eagle eyes!". I didn't know that the number of prongs in the emblem could be an indicator. Yes, this lamp has eleven of them, one a little smaller. My original Petromax lamps have 10 of them. The comparison with my 150CP Santrax did not reveal any conspicuous indicators. I do not have and do not know any Santromax or Silveray lamps. Speculation: Manufacturer: Kaiping Silveray Metal and Plastic Products Company Ltd ? Place of manufacture: HongKong ? Production time: 70s of the last century ? I hope that someone can contribute further knowledge and so far "Thank you!"
You give me too much credit. For most German product what I have is from collector researchers in Europe and the notes in the PLC are therefore collations of their expertise rather than mine. ::Neil::
Beryllium-copper alloy would look more copperish but I doubt that'd be used due to high costs and some toxicities. I wish I have one made of beryllium copper alloy. It is definitely stronger than brass It is not impossible for someone to completely remove any original nickel-plating from the brass...not by super elbow-grease polishing of course. Just a simple setup with some dilute hydrochloric acid in a reversed electrolysis bath would do that. He'd need to remove the nameplate first and have a good means to rivet it back like originally done too. The protruding lettering and characters on the pricker wheel and pump knob can also be done by an enthusiastic person by making negative-moulds out of silicone resin and then using black-coloured epoxy instead of bakelite as the material.
These copper-colored Petromax 827s appear from time to time in Germany.Sometimes they are nickel-plated ,sometimes they are not nickel-plated. Petromax 827s were also produced in Portugal by Hipolito.I saw one from 1976.These Portuguese Petromax looked almost exactly like the Petromax 827 from 1972 that were last manufactured in Germany .But the nameplate of the Portuguese Petromax looked exactly like that of @Willy 's lamp.Hipolito also used raised letters at times. Yes,that's right @MYN the sun of the Chinese Petromax has 11 rays like @Willy's lamp,an important indication. But I wonder why the license manufacturer, whoever that may be ,wasn't given all the original parts and tools to manufacture the Petromax 827. The wavy support frame without anti-twist protection was only available in Germany from 1958 to 1961.The rapid lever has been available since 1964.The J-tube and other small parts are not original.It is clear that Improvisation was carried out to bring the lamp together.Did they perhaps want to hinder the licensed manufacturer of the Petromax 827 because Hipolito still made 250cp lanterns himself from the Hipolito and Geniol brands until the end of the 1990s ?
From this picture, the rivets holding the nameplate of this lantern does not appear like those in the originals: It might suggest that someone had removed the original nameplate on the frame/collar to perform some elaborate 'de-nickelling' work or even plating it with copper. The nameplate was subsequently re-attached using a different rivetting means. Sometimes, the nameplate might not even be original. It can be fabricated.
I found two more examples of licensed Petromax 827s.I can see that there the same rivets were used. The nameplates,without the "Super" look exactly as they were last used by Hipolito for the Petromax brand lanterns.
Yes, it does look very similar what Hipolito used earlier. What is puzzling seems to be the 11-pointed star on the logo. It seems a little doubtful to me that Casa Hipolito would ever use the 11-pointed star.
Or should we ask: Would any other Company even bother to change the 10-pointed star to 11, if they had genuinely been granted the license to manufacture the Petromax?
At Hipolito,the sun on the Petromax lanterns always had 10 rays,just like before in Germany. The license manufacturer probably didn't look properly and so the error was later passed on to Chinese production. But that's just my personal guess.I don't know who the license manufacturer Was and I don't know which continent or country they were based in.
More than 4 years ago, similar speculations about a twin sister of this lamp were written in the German Pelam forum. I have now also registered there and asked for further information. A lamp that has a lot of room for conjecture and no tangible findings. "Thank you!" to everyone who has tried to help here so far!
You're welcome., @Willy Remember to update your findings from Pelam here We'd be interested to know about it too. Your lantern has very close resemblance to the ones manufactured by Hipolito in the 1970s except for some extra special features on various parts. From a past thread here: 1970´s Petromax 827
It's exasperating! After I found two more posts from 2009 + 2008 on the copper-coloured Petromax 827 (827 made of copper and "License by Petromax") in the Hytta forum, any place of manufacture is now conceivable! (except Greenland (- Let me summarise the fact: There are proven to be at least five of these lamps (I know of six lamps), copper-plated and with the mark on the tank and bonnet Licence by Petromax, in Europe and four of them in Germany. I can see the 11-pointed star on four of them. On the five of which there are pictures, the shield is not attached to the carrying frame with wooden rivets and they have outwardly curved handles on the handwheel. That was it for fact. There is a good chance that a galvanising expert took a close look at the lamp and came to the following conclusion: After some scraping in hidden areas and dabbing with smelly liquids, he realised that the tank was made of double copper-plated (soft copper, then hard copper) brass and the cap of single copper-plated brass. He thought that a purely copper-plated bonnet would not survive the high operating temperatures of a Petromax for long and would soon scale. Furthermore, it came to what one can believe or not, that a seller couple stated that they bought the lamp in 1980 for over 100DM in Dortmund (Germany). There was also a suggestion that it could be a copper-plated lamp from the Graetz factory in Altena, which was given to deserving departing department heads as a farewell gift. That is definitely not true. I know someone who has such a lamp and it is labelled "MADE IN GERMANY". The components used are also from a single mould from the respective year of manufacture. There is now no shortage of speculation about the places of manufacture. From Portugal to Hong Kong to Brazil to a number of African countries. The only thing you can say is that the place of manufacture should be on our planet. (Wowww, another fact!) I give up now, as I spend much more time in front of my calculator and despair than with my lamps, which give me peace of mind.
Wow! Investigations into such mysteries can certainly take a while. Knowledge on such items are not common, few and far between. Perhaps it is a very limited-run production too or customised for whatever reasons.
@Willy After observing your lantern and comparing the one from Romania, I can almost conclude that they are basically made by the same facility at the same period(most probably 1970s). Limited in numbers but certainly not a single 'one-off' make. I would rule out the Far-East as a possible place of origin, despite the 11-pointed star on the logo. Unless specially bought by someone in Far-Eastern countries, it is very unlikely to be be found there. Despite the Petromax also being made in South America, or in Argentina by at least one or more manufacturer, I'd doubt this lantern is one of those being made there. USA, Canada and Australia are out from the listing. Same goes for much of Africa.(some possibilities but still not that apparent) By large, I would still narrow it down to just Europe and bordering countries in Western Asia such as Turkey as the place of origin. In Europe, Petromax experts would also rule out a certain number of countries as candidates for place of manufacture. Example, UK, Iceland and Scandivanian countries can also be ruled out for this. Except for bordering regions like Russia, the Eastern European countries are possibilities. No way France would have anything to do with this lantern. Italy already have many Petromax-styled lantern brands of their own manufacture. Therefore, quite unlikely this lantern would originate from there. From this Europe map, you can possibly rule out more countries:- I hope someone, especially from any part of Europe would help shed some light on the origin of this lantern
