I had a little play the other evening with a Bowlfire, and quickly lost track of time and ended up not getting around to firing her up (Though she was freshly fuelled) as i should of been elsewhere I quickly lodged the bowlfire on my wooden sideboard in my lounge and shot off. Anyways, I didn't return home till the next day, only to walk into my lounge and find kero all over the wooden sideboard and pooled on the floor having left the bleed/cap open, i was mystified Soon found the reason though via a steady stream of bubbles........ giving it a little polish around the leak revealed...... That'll teach me not to assume a sound fount
Ouch! Not a funny thing to come home to. Are the Bialaddin tanks prone to crack exactly there? Reason I ask is because your tiny crack is almost identical to the one I have on my Bowlfire. Mine doesn't leak when it's unpressurised, but pressurizing will make it seep through. It's a thing I have been thinking of getting fixed for years now...
Mmmmm that's interesting same type, same place I want to fix mine too Christer, though I will have to think hard over what ways best to repair it Would be interesting to find out if this type of crack is common on the BBF's
Yes, I wonder if this is common. If the crack is as small as mine, or smaller, it's not certain you notice them so quick, because the crack is so tiny. You can hardly see by the eye that the paraffin comes out, and then you has to pump it good before. But the puddle that slowly forms on the surface beneath the rim of the tank will let you know something is wrong after some minutes. In my case, as the crack is so tiny and the over all condition is so good, I was just thinking of letting a small dose of Kreem inside the tank, tilt slightly and rotate just to fill the section between the tank and baseplate all around. Then pressurise it until I see some of the sealant come out of the crack, release the pressure and let it all cure. Here's mine:
Hi longilily what a dam shame,i have been very lucky so far with my stove lanterns and blowlamps i have not come accross any so far with stress cracks. Since beeing a member on CCS and on here,i now all ways carry out a bassic pressure test, on all my lanterns etc prior to fireing them up. You have pointed out a good advantage, with polishing as it is much easier to see hair line stress cracks once the tank has been polished
Hi Christer I wonder if that process would work on mine ? Or is the crack to long ? I guess there's no detriment to the tank if it doesn't work, so may well be a viable option Is this 'kreem' the same as POR that I've often read about ? I suppose I could get another tank, but ultimately I would far prefer to rescue this one Hi Brian, yes, I think I'll be adopting that procedure of pressure testing before trying after this little adventure We live and learn aye
It is worth doing especially before painting a lantern that the tank has to be painted. I dont supose there could be anything worse, than painting a tank on a lantern, and doing a realy good job of it an then finding a leak due to either stress cracks or a soldered joint that need resoldering
Could these type cracks be braised or is the gap too close for the braise to seep in? Or can brass be heated in that area so as to melt the crack closed? Steve
Steve, the entire baseplate is soldered into place with a pretty soft soldering, so I would prefer to not be forced to do any soldering there. Absolutely not brazing! Yes Longilily, I would say that POR15 and Kreem are similar products. Both are made to seal and also rust proof tanks for e.g. motorcycles. I bet it works well here, because the place where the crack is on both our tanks are actually not in a place where there are any pressure or movement in the materials normally. And if the sealant is forced down by some air pressure to those small faults, that obviously also exist apart from the crack itself, in the soldering on the inside, I'm sure it will do the trick. I couldn't contain myself, so I'm actually on the job right now.
Well done Christer ! Keep us posted then, and good luck What sort of prep have you taken prior to applying 'kreem/por15' ?
Hi Steve Thanks for your input brazing involves temperatures far exceeding whats involved in keeping the bottom plate in situ with soft solder I was considering soft solder, but like Christer, I feel this process could turn out to be a 'Can of worms' I.E it could turn out to be a bigger problem that the problem was in the first place Fingers crossed with 'Kreem'
This problem is not just confined to bowl fires. I bought two 300x's together in a box from auction. Polished the first one only to get that puddle of kero appear when attempting to light. Having learnt from that one I went and got the other tank and just polished the base rim to reveal yet more cracks. So to answer your question, all tanks of this style with the three screws in the top seem to be prone to cracking. Easiest way is to just get a new tank i'm afraid, make sure it is sound first though.
First the tank shall be well cleaned with water and a detergent. A bunch of iron nuts might be needed too, but my tank was very clean so I just went directly to the first liquid you get with these tank sealer kits (it's three bottles). Number one is an acid that removes rust if it's a steel tank, but above all etches the metal to give a good surface for the sealer to get a grip on. The acid shall sit for atleast four hours, then be drained. After that a good rinse with clean water is made, immediately followed with an adding of the second bottle you get in the kit. This is to remove all water from the rinsing. I'm pretty sure that this fluid is regular acetone. This is of course poured out again. That's the preparations. After that, bottle number three, the sealer itself, goes in with some procedures.
Isn't brazing sort of soldering with brass? If so, you'd melt the tank if you tried to braze it. Even silver soldering would be too hot (and unnecessary) and you'd melt the soft solder W&B used... I've an Imber Research version of the BBF i.e. the US export version, but they're the same bar a couple of small cosmetic details. Anyway, it has exactly the same type of crack in exactly the same place with exactly the same behaviour as the Bialaddin versions mentioned above. So it looks like there's a slight susceptibility to this in some bowlfires. I've not heard mention of any other examples and W&B must have produced thousands of BBFs so it's a small proportion (so far, anyway...) I've got some type of two-pack tank sealant (not Kreem or POR) somewhere around here and one day, that, the bowlfire and me with some time to spare will come together and it might just get sorted...
Sounds good and well explained Christer, I shall give it a go Keep us posted on your progress too David, as for you finding some spare time, Mmmmmm very doubtful Matt, I never seem to do things the easy way
Nor me - I suppose simply changing the tank on the IR bowlfire for a Bialaddin one is the easy way to go, given that they're completely indistinguishable. But I'd know it wasn't the original tank and that makes a difference to me. Mind you, I'm only guessing it's the original but it came to me direct from Oregon where it was found and I don't think there'll be too many Bialaddin tanks there. When I do mine, I'll seal all the way around the base seam and not just where it leaks now. Maybe that way future re-occurences in different places around the rim might be prevented...
I was thinking the same. And apart from that, it's much easier to let the sealant act all the way along the rim than to try to concentrate on one spot. It's not even certain that the paraffin enters between the baseplate and the tankside exactly where the crack happens to be on the outside. The normal way with sealants is to rotate the object to cover the entire inside, but in this case it's enough to rotate the tank when tilting it to let the sealant stay in the corner between the base plate and the sides of the tank all way around. I used an egg cup full, but firstly I diluted the sealant pretty much (with acetone since that's OK according to the instructions) in order to make it much thinner. It will be easier for it to find it's way down all crevices that way once the tank is pressurised. I poured the cup into the tank, and made a full, tilted revolution to let the first layer stick a couple of centimetres up against the frechly etched sides of the tank. Then it was put in normal position and pressurised. Firstly the reminents of the final acetone rinse dripped out of the crack. Then a very thin white-ish goo (the sealant is ivory white). I never got the full, thicker sealant out of the crack as I was hoping. I guess it's way to thick, even when diluted, to be able to firstly find its way down to the problem spot, and then to go through a hairline crack. Atleast the white-ish goo indicated that some of it had been pressed down through any crevises. After that I settled with the regular sealing procedure, meaning rotating the runny puddle inside the tank a revolution every half hour, or so, until it all had hardened. The tank lid shall of course be off to ease the hardening of the sealer. That way you build up several very thin layers to form a thicker wall. You can't form this thickness in one go, but you must take the time to rotate thin layers over and over again. I'm sure this will make a good seal that will last. Tank ready to go, and the sealant diluted to a runny state: After several hours and rotations you can see the sealant as it has hardened in several layers: When there's nothing more left inside that are runny, the tank is set to dry with the help of a very low flow of down-regulated, compressed air: The air thing at the end isn't necessary, but it will shorten the time for hardening severely since this isn't an epoxy compound. It hardens as the acetone leaves the sealant, and in a confined space like a tank, this take some time if the air isn't circulated.
Hello Christer, Is that a brass tank? Years ago on the old British single cylinder long stroke engine mounted in a rigid fame (pre WW2), yearly maintenance was to anneal the copper/brass fuel pipes. (From "Classic Motorcycles articles" - "Sliderule aka Phil Irving" ) They work hardened with the cycles of vibrations and heat. This crack has probably happened with the pressure and heat cycles over the years of use. Does anyone advocate gentle annealing of founts to reduce heat stress cracks? Cheers ThomasL
Yes, it's brass. Stress cracks mainly occur on places like this where the material has been rolled or pressed pretty hard at the making. Then it hardens further, just as you say, by age and usage. And sometimes in contact with certain chemicals. Ammonia in some polishers for an example. I think it was Neil who explained how you atleast can reduce some stress by putting the stuff in an oven under controlled forms. Trouble is that you never come up to temperatures high enough to totally anneal the metal without ruining the soldering that's present on several places.
An excellent piece Christer, very well documented ! Definitely the way to go I guess the next pic will be the BBF alive Good work
Thanks Longiliy! Yes, a pic of it running will probably come. I just think I will let the sealant dry for yet another day, even if I'm sure it's ready to go already.
I tested it this evening. It worked perfectly. I pumped it really good, and no leak was detected. I placed it on a bit of paper tissue, which would reveal any leak, but nothing. So I think you might give it a go with yours, Longilily. Good luck! You can see the crack at the rim. Some of the clear coating I had on the fount has dissolved around the crack due to the drops of acetone that came out first when I pressurized it with the sealant inside:
Well done Christer That is a nice BowlFire and these are my favourite heater lamps 8) I looked up Kreem here on the web and it is not very much less price than POR15. But that was only a quick look, so I will try again. So glad that you got the BBF working again. Steve.
Now that brings a smile to my face Christer That's a good job well done 8) and yes, I'll have to give it a go for sure Cheers
Thanks guys. Shed-Man, I think Kreem and POR15 is pretty much the same in price - as in function - so the best pick is probably just the one that's most easy to acquire where you live. Where I am, Kreem happens to be the easiest. Yes, I like the Bialaddin bowlfires too. They are small and handy, but still give out a pretty decent heat for their size. And they are much more silent than most other heaters I got.
Does the Kreem (or POR 15) have a temperature tolerance when dry? The reason I ask, is that I want to seal the tank of a Tilley R1 that has a hairline crack very similar to what is shown in this post. I also want to leave it polished to brass and clear-coated (as it was originally). The clear-coat I prefer is baked at 200F or 94C for an hour after it dries. So, I'm trying to to see whether I have to clear-coat before I use the Kreem.
The treatment to seal inside fonts is only meant to seal the inside after the repair (hole or split ) has been fixed . these sealers were meant to seal fuel tanks etc from rusting which are not pressure vessels but open to the air .Some fonts are steel or steel bottoms etc so if font is servicable no holes etc it can be treated as such .If its brass you would solder the hole or split up etc . this has been noted on the other sites etc as warning .
That was my initial thought, bit what about how Christer has fixed the BBF in this post? And if its a hairline fracture, there is likely to be more over time....
