hi folks. Saw this selling on the Bay and wondered what was so special about it. £262. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TILLEY-LAMP-/160918732489?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&nma=true&si=MPgtcJyblW984e9CL%2Fqq96eU4KQ%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Looks like the seller doesn't even know what he sells . As Stan said, these were made for Rothmans only (a bit like the "gold bonds" Coleman stoves & lanterns) so it is a fairly small production run. In the end, these are stock-standard lanterns with a different hood color. Best regards, Wim
It's different to Ian's in the gallery though. EDIT: Looking at the gallery I should think that lamp is early 50's, Ian's example is from the 70's. Perhaps this is just a rare civilian version? I'm sure Ian will make it all clear before long.
To me it looks like a later hood on an earlier fount. The Rothmans promotion I think was in the late 60's to 70's. That tank is I think earlier. It could be that this is a "Lampenstien". I hope not, for the buyer's sake. The auction description was very, very sparse, I think that I would have asked a few questions before paying that price. We may be all proved wrong yet! Steve.
The Rothmans Specials seem to have been the hood enamelled in Rothman's blue placed on whatever lantern was current at the time. So if you buy a Rothmans Special, yes, you're paying that premium for the blue hood alone. You might say that they were all Frankenlamps, cf. the Imber Research stuff. I've seen two types of blue hood - the two-piece welded and the one piece. My presumption is that the Rothmans Specials straddled the changeover between the two types. Ian's book illustrates the two types of hood but doesn't seem to give a definitive answer and I guess the only way we'll ever know is if some of the Rothman's gift catalogues from the time of the offer turn up. I bet there'll be even fewer of those than the lanterns, though...
I was very interested when I first saw this because I thought it might have been a new style Rothmans Special from the 1970s that we hadn't come across. A quick question to the seller revealed it is in fact an early 1950s Bialaddin 300x with a blue top fitted, so it isn't all that special! Though the blue top does look in very good condition. Thought I stood a chance at £42.42!!!!!! PS I know we aren't allowed to mention auctions but no one better bid on the 'OTHER' lamp currently listed....I haven't got one.....
Just nipping out for a can of blue enamel spray paint Ian! Also putting out feelers to local enamelling companies for quote for blue enamel resprays! Only joking Steve
Well, using that argument, a 1970s Rothman's Special isn't that 'special' either because it's just a chrome 320 with a one-piece blue top... Interesting that the seller suddenly knows its a 50s 300X with blue top fitted, despite saying on the listing he knew "nothing whatsoever" about the lantern... Steve, this is blue vitreous enamel as opposed to blue enamel paint - if it was that easy, we'd all be doing it!
Hi David, To be fair to him, I don't think he did know. I asked him a direct question, "Is there any writing on the collar?" I have 2 blue, 2 piece hoods, both came to me on silver painted Vapalux M1s of the 1970s.They came from different sources,one from Malta!
I never understood why the british are so imprecise when talking about enamelled tanks and founts and hoods or enamelled reflectors. I never got what they meant, vitreous enamelled or spray painted...
Yeah, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that an ebay seller is too dumb to read what's written on an item he's selling and then incorporate it into his listing. Anyway, do we actually know when Rothmans started and ended their gift scheme? I can remember Kensitas and Embassy having similar schemes from probably the late 50s onwards when my parents and their friends were smokers. What's to say that Rothmans didn't have their scheme running at the same time? Or, to put it another way, where did the idea that the Rothmans gift scheme was "70s" come from? I just don't know, but why would W&B produce the two-piece hoods in the same shade of blue enamel prior to their tie-in with Rothmans? It doesn't add up...
Hi David, The idea that the Rothmans lamp came from the 1970s originated from Neil but I agree with him. The Rothmans lamp has a Vapalux marked control knob and globe. If it had been made in the 1950s or 60s it would surely have had a Bialaddin mark. W&B struck out on their own resurrecting the Vapalux mark around 1968. In the early 70s W&B produced a lot of chrome Vapalux 320 style lamps with one piece and two piece hoods. I have 3 in boxes and the boxes are dated 70 and 71. The two piece blue hoods that I have are both on Vapalux M1s. They both have warnings on the collars about use in confined spaces, a result of bad usage and press coverage in the late 60s. I think the two piece hoods and M1s came after the chrome lamps but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure Rothmans did have coupons in the late 50s and 60s as you said and maybe they just had production model Bialaddins in the gift catalogue then. Maybe that is why W&B went out of their way to make special hoods for them in the 70s in Rothmans Blue because they had experienced good business with them previously through Aladdin Industries. Rothmans do have an Archives Dept in Liverpool I think. I have contacted them by email about old catalogues but never had a reply.
I said these were from the 1970s because that is what Peter Sunderland told me. They were not 1950s for sure because the Rothmans special was a Vapalux not a Bialaddin. ::Neil::
Yes, obviously, but that wasn't what I asked. ...and with all due respect to Peter Sunderland, he told me things as well...
Yes I am well aware of the dangers hidden in the gospel according to Peter. However I had no other evidence so for now his word is all we have that they were made as a special batch of hood in the mid 1970s. He remembered the job well enough because he said that Rothmans had wanted a special finish on the lantern but baulked at the price and settled for a standard plated lantern with just the special blue hood. He gave me to understand that they only ordered a single batch of about 80 of the one piece hood. It was also Peter who told us these blue hood lanterns were made for Rothmans. This is an evidence thing. We have three items of evidence. A one piece blue hood; A two piece blue hood and Peter’s word that there were 80 one piece blue hoods made in the 1970s for Rothmans. Two of these support each other in that the one piece hood types exist and that is what Peter said they made. The period may or may not be right but the style of hood was being made in the 1970s so there is no evidence to refute Peter’s memory. The two piece hood does not fit the other evidence and in fact suggests there may have been two batches made but we have no evidence for a date or quantity. So right now on balance we have to go with the evidence as presented. We obviously need more evidence because what we have is vague but for now 80 one piece in the mid 1970s is all we have. ::Neil::
Funny, I was going to bid on it too and asked the seller a few questions about it. The vent has some chips and the fount has a dent which isn't noticeable in the pic. Not knowing much about them I thought that it must be an early 300X Rothmans version that was super rare when it went for that price.
Yes, Neil, I agree with you about the evidence situation but it just strikes me as odd that Rothmans would want to start having a paraffin pressure lantern in their gift scheme in the mid '70s when, to virtually all intents and purposes, such technology had had it's day 5-10 years previously. Maybe it was meant to be a nostalgia/collectors item - who knows? Granted there's no evidence at the moment, but I'm keeping an open mind about it because, to me, it seems entirely reasonable to suppose that Rothmans had been offering such lanterns for a number of years and the one-piece hood on a chrome 320 was just the latest incarnation at the end of the line. Do we know when Peter Sunderland started working at W&B?
An open mind is vital when assessing evidence. The whole point of Occam's razor is to decide what is the best evidence. In this case we don't have a best because so little is actually known for sure. I do agree the mid 1970s seems late though. I guess what we need is a sight of a few of those gift catalogues which are hopefully dated. I have no clue when Peter started with W&B. Probably 1960s at a guess. Hmmmm I might just do a little searching for him. Watch this space. ::Neil::
Not an easy chap to find. The name is actually pretty common. However I did find a marriage record for Dec 1955 in Halifax. That presumably means he was about 20 ish at the time and could have been working at W&B from the early 1950s. Sort of makes sense as we know he retired a few years back. I would guess Peter worked there from at least 1960. Means he would have dealt with the Rothmans orders at any time from then. Mind you memory is a fragile thing and he might have forgotten about an earlier order particularly if he was not a manager at the time. All guess work. We need paper. ::Neil::
Neil, You are testing MY memory now but I'm pretty sure Peter told me he started working at W&B in the early 1970s. I spoke to him several times at the Factory as many of you have done. He was a most welcoming and interesting character but did speak off the top of his head sometimes as David alluded to. A little bit strange really because sitting in the safe at the side of him was a wealth of history in chronological order of the history of the W&B Factory which he could have quoted verbatim from!! Unfortunately that information gets very sparse when you get past the 50s. So I can't help further on the written evidence on this one. I wish you luck on the trail of Peter. He does still have contact with Bairstows but has always seemed a bit allusive when I wanted to speak to him.
I'm sure he was an excellent engineer and works manager but Herb Ebendorf, he wasn't! Not a bad salesman either - after some, er, 'Chinese arithmetic' he gifted me an M1B collector's lantern, mint in box for £80, realised I wasn't going to spend any more money and kicked my ar$e back out onto Reservoir Road. A good man...
