Hollow Wire lights: Converting from Gas/Petrol to Kerosene.

G'day all,

Since acquiring my first few hollow wire lights I've found myself more and more interested in them.

The Glorias' and Knight lights' I have run on gas/petrol (petrol from here on). I find the thought of attempting to light, a nearly 100 year old petrol light, a bit daunting. I have no operating instructions, I have no clue if there are safety features on the lights and if there are, I have no clue if the safety features are in working order.

I'd rather try to gain an understanding on how to convert the lights from petrol to kerosene - if that is possible.

I don't really understand how petrol and kerosene lights/lamps operate differently.

I assume the lack of a pre-heater system on a petrol light would be very problematic to then use kerosene in it.

I remember reading a post by Neil sometime ago and from memory, in the particular post I was reading, he was explaining that the Coleman R-55 generator can run on kerosene if you remove the cap.

I deduce from Neils' post that perhaps kerosene needs more oxygen intake to burn correctly than petrol does?

Does jet size matter?

Any help and thoughts on this matter will be greatly appreciated.

 

Operating principle is same for both fuels:

1. Evaporate the fuel
2. Mix evaporated fuel with air
3. Burn mixture in mantle

Kerosene needs more heat to evaporate so f.ex. in Optimus lantern that works with kerosene has a loop (Preston loop) around the mantle where kerosene goes and evaporates. Same lantern with petrol configuration has only straight tube that passed mantle from one side only. That "side pass" gives enough heat to evaporate the petrol.

I think that above is the main difference. Others surely have more detailed/better information.

 

Not so fast young man. Some gasoline devices will run on kero but the mixture will be slightly wrong and as you say will need more pre heat. BUT HW stuff can be a problem because some of the older generators will not run on kero at all. In action the generator has to be heated by the mantles and some older types will not run hot enough to sustain a kero burn. We need to see what you are proposing to try to convert.

As a general observation I don't understand this need to convert lamps to run on another fuel. They are what they are and if it wants gasoline then that is what it should be run with. Getting it wrong with kero in a gas lamp might be more dangerous than using the correct fuel. Certainlly the converse is true and in general it is not always safe to use gasoline in a kero lamp. Depends on the safety features of course. So my advice generally is don't try to convert things. ::Neil::

 

Neil,

As always, I appreciate your input.I do agree with your advice quoted above. Not being used to sticking a lighted match in the way of petrol makes me a tad nervous, just thinking about it. Doing so on 100 year old unfamiliar lights with no instructions doubles that anxiety.

Knight Light ceiling light and tank.

This is the light I'd like to light up. I have all the proper connections and 7 metres of original hollow wire to connect the light to the tank.

The generator is clear as is the jet. The light and tank are in very sound condition, I don't anticipate any problems with the tank holding pressure.

Perhaps you could run your eye over the light and tank for me to see if anything is missing, that I'm not aware of.

Thanks in advance.

 

Information I have read on these early lamps would have me believe that lighting of these would be performed with a rod the end of which was wound with a material soaked with meths to pre heat and when hot enough the fuel was turned on.

 

That is a Gloria burner. It might run on kero but I would be wary of it. The danger is if the generator does not stay hot enough it will spout liquid hot kero which will burn because you have a flame just underneath it. Then you get hot burning kero all over the floor. This is why I am not happy running old burners like this on the wrong fuel. This particular burner sometimes had a supplementary heater giving a multipoint flame up to the generator. I don't know if that was for a kero burner but I assume it was and that implies that the generator was not hot enough with just the heat from the mantle alone to sustain a kero burn. You can ty it but keep a hand on the shut off valve.

Gasoline lamps are safe enough. These lamps were designed by guys who wanted to stay in business and it is not good practice to start setting fire to your customers. Just make sure all the joints and seals are tight and run it on gasoline. The fuel is contained and the only place it should burn is at the mantle. As with all these old devices you do need to be aware of what you are doing but if it is leak free then it should be OK. Just keep an eye on it when burning and make sure the shut off valve works. ::Neil::

 

Yes, I've seen similar when lighting a blow lamp that has not been pre-heated enough.

Neil, I believe Shellite (R55) is safer than petrol. Would substituting Shellite for petrol in this light be ok?

 

Hello Graham,

Thanks for that info.

Is the pre-heating done only if you are using kero or is it also needed if you are running with petrol?

 

Shellite is petrol. It is just lead free petrol with no additives. You should never use car petrol in a lamp. It will clog the generator pretty quick and some of the additives don't burn off properly and are not nice to breath. Petrol lamps should be run on shellite (in Australia) or the equivalent.

 

Nils,

Thanks for that.

It was once explained to me that Shellite was petrol but with additives that made it less volatile.

This topic has been very helpful, I thank you all.

Hopefully Graham can offer an answer as to whether you should pre-heat when using petrol.

I can attach the hollow wire to the tank as the fitting is there and it just slides up and screws on.

At the light end, whilst I have the fitting to the light, when the light was removed the hollow wire was just snipped off. To re-attach the hollow wire to the light fitting, it will have to be bronzed, something I'm incapable of doing.

 

Yes you do have to preheat a petrol lamp. It just doesn't need much preheating.

 

Shellite and petrol (gasoline) volatility should be the same or so similar as to be inconsequential. Shellite has fewer additives than petrol.

In Australia:

Shellite (X55) = Recosol 55 (R55) = Coleman fuel.

Tony

 

Nils,

I have read ads from Trove in which it was stated it takes as little as 6 seconds to light 'the' light/lamp. I can't recall what 'the' light/lamp was.

I'd wondered why the 6 second reference was made. I'm guessing now it's the time you need to take to pre-heat.

Others say you can light them instantly.

I suppose I could wrap some wick around the end of the vapouriser close to the jet and soak it in metho to pre-heat?

Tony,

I didn't make myself clear to Nils in my reply to him in regards to the volatility of Shellite. It's not that I doubted him. I should have said "It was once explained to me in error......"

 

... And I was trying to explain to non-Australians what Shellite was...

Cheers

Tony

 

There are non-Australians? Now I'm doubting you.

 

I too would guess that the six seconds was a warming time. Many years ago I was given a double mantled Coleman (can't tell you which model - too long ago), and being wary of petrol as a fuel (used to paraffin) only lit it the once - in the garden. I seem to recall following some instructions given and simply turned on the fuel knob and put match to mantle - lit straight away. It got passed on. Nice and bright, but we used lamps on the boat so petrol was steered clear of in the main.

 

Hi Derek,

It may be hard for those used to lighting petrol lamps to understand the trepidation of placing a lit match to petrol. It just doesn't come natural to me, in fact, it's the last thing I would have thought of, to do with petrol.

I suppose, if I was to do it on a brand new Coleman rather than a 100 year old light, I'd feel a lot safer. I am glad that when the time comes I'll have 7 metres of hollow wire between the fuel tank and the light. Like you, it will be in the back yard.


Neil gave some excellent thoughts on why not to be concerned and I've taken that on board.

I still think of a blokes (a member here) reaction after I sent him a tip on where to get a cheap, vintage, petrol stove. He replied with, "No thanks, I hate loud bangs."

 

As a matter of interest, does anyone know how fast the flame-front of a petrol vapour/air explosion travels?

Just wondrin'...

 

Petrol lamps in good condition will hardly make a bang.
But a leak somewhere can of course cause a fire more easy than when using less volative fuels.

I have no worries whatsoever when using my petrol lamps. As already stated, you must be sure everything is tight and well sealed, but that should go for paraffin lamps too.

If I was to be concerned about any lamps, it's the ones that use alcohol.
Alcohol is a much more treacherous fuel than petrol since it actually can reach a flammable fuel to air ratio inside the tanks and other confined compartments. There you actually could have a loud bang with a bit of bad luck...
The area above the petrol surface is in reality always over saturated, so not really any danger in that aspect.

 

Matty.
The hollow wire light just use Shellite mate .These
lights have been around now for over 100 years .
Some people still use them in USA still no power .
And guess who lights them at nite most likely the women of the house .The hollow wire tank is the most important part just make sure the valve outlet seals shut properly and the tank holds pressure .

Bob .

 

I found this interesting. From an Australian government website.

Petrol is a complicated mixture of various hydrocarbons, octane boosters and detergents. Hydrocarbons are just chemicals that contain hydrogen and carbon. As far as the oil industry is concerned, the lovely thing about hydrocarbons is that they burn. As oil comes out of the ground, it contains lots of different hydrocarbon molecules - some of them with hundreds of carbon atoms. The good thing about long hydrocarbons is that they give up lots of energy. The bad thing is that long hydrocarbons are hard to start burning. So the long hydrocarbons that come out of the ground are broken down into smaller hydrocarbons. In petrol, most of the easily burnable hydrocarbon molecules have between 4 and 12 carbon atoms. This range gives a good mix of easy burning, and lots of energy.

Now here's the tricky part. Petrol, the liquid, will not burn. What burns is the vapour that comes off the petrol.

And now it gets even more tricky. If you fill the cabin of a car entirely with petrol vapour, it won't burn - because while there's a lot of fuel, there's no oxygen to burn the fuel. So petrol vapour at 100% concentration won't burn. Suppose you go to the other extreme, and fill the cabin of the car with 0% petrol vapour and 100% air. Obviously, it won't burn, because there's no fuel.

Petrol vapour will burn only when it makes up between 2% and 8% of the volume, with the air making up the rest.

It's not that easy to get petrol vapour in that range between 2% and 8% - which means that exploding fuel tanks are not that common.

 

It appears, from the little research I did, that there are variables that will dictate how fast the explosion travels.

Things like ho much or how little vapour there is. Vapour to air ratio plays a part in how violent the explosion will be and hence what speed the explosion will reach.

Just how fast the explosion is or can be eluded me, except to say, that chemical explosions like gunpowder/petrol are slower than sound waves.

High explosives like TNT are faster than sound waves.

 

Exactly. That's what I meant about petrol being pretty safe from that aspect.
As I said, it's very picky about the fuel/air ratio, and (almost) always oversaturated in tanks.
Alcohol isn't as picky, hence it's a more dangerous fuel when it comes to the risk of exploding tanks, so I'm very cautious when using the alcohol pressure lamps.

 

"David wrote:
As a matter of interest, does anyone know how fast the flame-front of a petrol vapour/air explosion travels?"

54ft per second, or 16.5metres per second.

Not a lot of time/room for a hasty retreat. However, those figures are for the flame speed within an internal combustion chamber.

 

Hey Derek,

Yes, I've read that those types of things are variables that will determine the flame speed.

Apart from the vapour to air ratio that is ignited, internal ignition flame speed depends on how large or small the containment is, how large or small and how many or few the exits are.

Apart from the vapour to air ratio that is ignited, external ignition flame speed depends on if there are any obstructions in front of the ignition point and how much of the 360 deg of radius is obstructed.

 

Bob,

Between you, and the others offering re-assurance, I'm sure I'll be able to take some man-up pills and get the job done. I do still have one problem of re-attaching the fitting that screws into the light back onto the hollow wire.

I haven't decided if I will wear my Ned Kelly suit yet

This topic has been extremely helpful and I have thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks to all those that have contributed and may contribute from here on in.

 

Wikipedia said between 1800 and 3000 metres per second IIRC.

Maybe my maths is a bit dodgy but even at the lower velocity that's about 0.004 seconds to cover 7 metres. However your point remains, Derek.

Hmmm, I think even Usain Bolt would be struggling...

 

Blimey! That's a mile plus per second!!
The quote did come from Wiki, and their reference was to this site: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/section-1.html
Scroll down on that page to section 7.4

Either way, it's fast - and will depend as Matty says, on other environmental elements. Steam is maybe more dangerous, as the energy in pressurised steam is expanding as it escapes.

 

Just light the thing...

What's the worst that can happen

 

I have come across many articles in my research that answers your question - death.

Perhaps death isn't the worse thing that can happen though as I'm betting many have wished they died.

As previously stated, it doesn't come naturally to me to shove an open flame to petrol. I'm a lot more at ease about lighting a 100 year old petrol light now, than I was before this topic commenced, thanks to excellent input by members here.

Here is one of the many articles I have come across, none of which were specifically searched for.

From The Riverine Grazier (Hay, NSW : 1873 - 1954)
4th December 1914

The ' Recorder ' says that a serious burning accident took place at Queechy on Sunday evening. A Mrs Murdoch was lighting a hanging Gloria lamp when it exploded and set her clothing on fire. The woman had the presence of mind to roll herself on the floor, and her father (Mr Linnett) seizing a table cloth, wrapped it around her, but before the flames were subdued Mrs Murdoch was very severely burned all over the upper part of the body, and is in a critical condition.