J.C Higgins (Hong Kong) Union Metal Works : NRV query.

Hi all,

I recently bought a J.C Higgins lantern, made in Hong Kong & probably under the Union Metal Works fore runners; it is near enough exactly like the Unimet GL-3 single mantle model, which is why I bought it, the only difference being that the pump base didn't end up during manufacture being fitted with the snorkel breather tube, reaching from the pump's base, up to the founts apex.

I bought this Higgins lantern, because the fount was in good order & the other parts were excellent & the fount is hopefully to replace the dented one on the Unimet GL-3 here, which had arrived damaged a long while since & I found couldn't be so easily fixed (I'd posted about this before in CPL somewhere).

Having fully fettled the Higgs's fount for it's eventual re-spray and having already tried to pressurise the tank and failed in doing so before the full strip down began; I oiled up the NRV and then went to release it with a large slot screw driver.

I found it came out easy, but was puzzled to what fell out of the tube, as it wasn't the solid tubed, smaller NRV fitted to Kamplite's & other generics of this same model. It had the same in there as what's in the Hipolito's and Vapalux/ Bialaddins; the one with the pip and spring fuel lock, larger type.
Which with this one isn't kept out of the fuel in the tank, so it is more prone to fail and also pip, valve and washer wear; fuel escaping back out through the pump tube and causing a mess. I'm sure it's factory standard, but there's no dates any where on the lantern, to help ascertain specific time periods to its manufacture. The collars being stripped of it's green paint ATM (baked on very hard, but good thick steel underneath, ect), but can add what's found later on.

I wondered if someone knew about, or had ever noticed this NRV difference before, across these same factory manufactured models; as I suspect that the Higgins fount was made before the Unimet GL-3, owing to possible re-modelling of the lanterns generics, when the AGM Queen Stove works division name, was taken over by King Seeley/ Thermos and then onto Union Metal Works brand, Unimet.

I'd have preferred the snorkel spout NRV in the Higg's replacement fount (finger in dam type, but with the snorkel), but it's too late to quivle & the fount was rock solid for such an old lantern. The male/ female threads to the Higgins NRV pump assy, are just the same as the Unimets, as I fitted both different valves into each similar lantern; though I might have missed that one has a compression gas fitment to the valve, with the other one, the Higg's, requiring a led washer in place.

Pictures do help I know, so I'm sorry not to supply some right now, but if some one might also know where I could find a led washer that'll fit the Higgins's NRV; I'd be able to test the fount for pressure properly, so I'm not going to the lengths of all the re-spraying, then later possibly having to rectify any leakage problems later and ruining the new paintwork ?

I have tried asking around, but haven't been so lucky, so thought someone within CPL might know more & perhaps be able to offer some advice please; I don't have the kits to cut my own, but I can measure the NRV's inside diameter, approximately.

Thank's then,

Jon.

 

Hello,

Isn't there no interest there ? I thought that CPL was a good platform and resource, for the online collector and enthusiast in all things Lanterns.

Well, I'll wait and see, as ya never know

Thank you then,

Jon.

 

But if the NRV is of a Petromax type you are lucky. They are easy to find, easy to replace and seal well. Just put the fount between your legs and really turn the screw driver with a maximum amount of force to seal.

I've replaced the NRV on a number of Petromax and its clone and nothing could not be easier or more worry free.

 

Hi Hanzo,

It is like the Petromax, Hipolito or Vapalux NRV's, Yes, It is already out of the Higgins lantern fount, with the valve cleaned but no lead washer yet. I was making enquiry also, to see if any lampie, hopefully world wide, casting a wider net per se; had ever noticed the two differing NRV', fitted to the Higg's then the Unimet, both built within the same factory in Hong Kong.

The lead washer needs to be of smaller inside diameter, probably 4.5 mil or there abouts, to fit this NRV; I think I'll have to try making my own or go make a visit a plumbers shop & try there.



The fount to the Unimet lantern above is the one dented, but that had the usual small NRV fitted; now the older Higgin's fount, bought for replacement, has the simpler variety and it would have just been interesting to know why the companies prior the Union Metal Works, felt it necessary to do away with the snorkel safety aspect of fount design.

It's in this forum somewhere, I swear I saw or read it before. . but here weren't any conclusive dates, as to the changes made at factory, ect.

Ok,thanks for your reply, ta !

Jon .

 

A neat lantern!

I have not fettled any of those lanterns and paperwork for them is scarce.

 

I agree with Jeff, that's a great looking lantern Jonti, hope those with the knowledge can help.

 

Thanks Jeff,

I'd just thought it peculiar, how the pumps nr valve wasn't the same between the two lanterns, presumably both manufactured by the same plant & separated only by a decade, if that. The pump assy to the unit in the Unimet above, is fitted with the improved 'snorkel spout breather' variety and that wasn't a new concept in the 50's to 60's.

It must have been fitted as part of it's new improved design for those lanterns under the new name and manufacturer; certainly a more costly way of improving the valve and lanterns safety aspect, whilst being run on a burn with the extra materials and tooling required to fit the breather for retail. The toe dipper over to the snorkel breather . . . .

Even with the box's instructions pamphlet, the valve wouldn't be depicted, newer design over from old, Higg's to the Unimet HK's . . . ; so probably barking up the wrong tree for any kind of resolution, world wide. Still weird though, how the toe dipper valves were fitted to the Higgins HK.

If someone suspects they might own one though, check it out for me please through the filler cap (it's visible on line of sight) and add the collar details, if they can still be made out ?

Jon.

 

Yes Hanzo, It's a tricky bit of information to find, but will just be content if I can get the older tank holding pressure; I'm kind of tinkling upstream, if neither tank can be used. This green Higg's will more than likely be a good un though; if not, it's still getting a re-spray and the very nice decal's being affixed (It'll have to be an ornament other wise ). Ta.

Jon.

 

Ok, thanks Hanzo . . Jeff .

Here's some pictures of the two different NRV's.

The right one is out of the older J.C Higgins (HK) model (no snorkel/ spout), then on the left is the usual diddy NRV, which can be found in the Kamplites, Campers and Unimets (probably more also); this one is the one feeds out to the snorkel breather spout, for added safety security and wasn't fitted to the recent green Higgins, bought as a scrapper for its fount.

I didn't expect that at all, I'm still rattling over it as well . . .











I hope the scans are clear enough, but earlier I measured the male threads to each valve and contrary to what I'd said prior, the pair aren't the same gauge thread; the one on the right is 4.5 mm and the smaller one on the left, is just a hair under 5 mm's. I had 'em both in the female pump too, I just didn't send either home; strangely looking back, both rode the thread 'into' the females, with the one meant for it, obviously fitting.

All's I can say is it's a good job I didn't force the issue, when doing the wee test (valve compatability), as the smaller NRV (but a point five wider thread), could well have knackt the whole fount up !

So, the older HK Higg's, if there's anymore still out there (sure there is), wasn't machined to accept the physically smaller standard sized AGM, 'finger in dam' NRV; should anyone think it might, it feeds on and catch's, but then it'll bore out and damage any HK Higgins fount's, valve thread (brass whisps, ect).

Possibly a dishevelment of either or's, with the Higg's HK, both types being fitted; but no ones come forward on that yet, it's certainly a possibility. I'll have a sken about for another . . . . just for curiosities sake.

Jon .

 

Manufacturers often tweaked their designs and Tilley was not an exception, the variety of design just in their pumps is wide, check out the link below.

http://www.classicpressurelamps.com/forum/showgallery.php?fid/472/

 

Have you tried asking over at the colemancollectorsforum.com, being US-centric they are more likely to be familiar with the evolution of the lamps you are interested in.

 

Hello Miss HD,

I could give it a try, if I can find my login details !? . . I should imagine there'll be more examples of the Higg's Hong Kong model over in the US, than there is here in the UK; World wide trading might well have ensured a good number of the HK's, ended up with them being in the hands & ownership of US appreciators on home soil, whether either at time of manufacture, or decades afterwards, sharing or passing them on, ect.

I should just add, that it was also a tad confusing, finding that type of NRV there, as I've around nine or ten here of the J.C Higgin's diddy single model; with every one of them either having the three or two piece NRV, that fits the hollow, then solid tubed pump rod, both and all I had, up to now, being equip with the usual snorkel spout tube.

Nice surprises usually, I just hope the fount & valve play ball and there's no severe gas leakages; but, . . . that can sometimes be the issue with the Vapalux/ Bialaddin lamps (which share the same NRV design), if they aren't regularly maintained. Kero's a bit different to white gas, as you'll know; so I'd best remember that, if eventually I get the beauty up and running again.

Ta then,

Jon .

 

Yes Jeff, different designs over time, owing to what was available at that specific time, but I'd say this green Higgins Hong Kong model, was among the first design batch's in production there and possibly sided as having a defect. It'd never been lit, though it was missing much of its founts paint and the generator and NRV were badly rusted and gunked; either that or the folk who bought it originally just couldn't get it going, the fount was spotless inside and the burner oven's protective paint was still impeccable !

Could well have been improved though along its way, who knows ! It all seems original, with that said.

Gotta get it re-sprayed now though; it's all prepped and ready for the undercoat, I'll click on. . . cheers for the link

Jon.

 

I can't see the problem here. Either valve will work and the lack of a lead washer is no big deal as it can be replaced with a rubber seal. The shorter NRV appears to be a ball seal type as used in early lamps filler/inlet valves and at worst you force open the crimped jaws and replace the ball with a new SS one. I have noticed before that some of these HK made lanterns do not have the safety features that you normally get in US made gasoline lamps. It is therefore vital that these pump valves work reliably. Either way with new rubber seals or new ball it is an easy fix. ::Neil::

 

Righto Neil, will only try the original NRV with this Higg's fount though, as the other won't thread in and I aren't about to risk breaking the female threads in the pumps base. BTW, you've some patience and a surgeons dextricity, if ya can peel back those lugs to the smaller AGM valve and drop in a new bolly; I'd struggle doing that, but it's interesting to know it is possible, ta.

Will try the founts NRV after it's re-spray, as I can't find the right sized washer, lead or other wise online; I really need to look into how to make my own.

Cheers,
Jon.

 

Did you keep the lead washer that came out of the Higgens? If it's meaty enough a heat and quench should return it to a useable condition.

As for making your own, I started with a cheap Chinese punch set for £5 and some Lead, Nitrile and Viton in various thicknesses and punched the washers in two steps and that was fine for a while.

I now use a nesting punch which will punch a washer in a single step, not a cheap tool, but worthwhile if you plan to make a lot.

My advice would be to use Viton for your washers, it is far easier to punch than lead and seems more durable than Nitrile.

 

Hi Miss HD,

Difficult to know where to buy all the clobber from, and maybe it is best to start with inexpensive punch's; but I imagine with the two stage process, the core I.D is removed first, then the outside diameter/ circumference, secondly ?

One needs an accurate, agile and deft grip, being able to get them "bang on" & also chopped straight down at 90, in the perpendicular; the last part of that, is here and there, where I find some that I've bought, a bit wavy. Not easy though, either stepped cutting actions, but I'll take a look in eBay or go to the plumbers shop in town, to see if any's there or listed up for sale within the Bay ?

Like the sound of those expensive one shot one's & wouldn't mind taking a look at what they, or all of them look like; is it too much to ask to try and add a few pictures, showing the basic mechanics of them please ? Just can't envisage what the business ends will look like !

Oh . . . the old lead washer is still whole, but it looks like grey spaghetti and is fit for nothing (too flat) . . .. Though I still can't throw it away !

Thanks eh,

Jon .

 

Hi Jon,

Actually, with the cheap single punches I punched the outer first and the core second, it is easier to centre it that way.

The cheap punches needed some filing to make them even and sharp enough to punch nicely, but once that was done it was easy to get nice washers from soft material such as Viton with just a gentle tap.

These are what I started with: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12-Piece-Hollow-Punch-Set-Silver-/161608536357

And this is what I use now: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361369427389

I paid far less, they are not uncommon on eBay.de

I have this set and another ex Bundeswehr (originally DDR) set that has smaller outer diameter sizes, used along with the cheap punches they cover almost every combination I need.

 

Hi Miss HD,

Ta very much for those links, I have them saved, though I'll need to look for the German chisels kit, with a bit more intensity and also use Translate, so I can read it all properly. That last eBay link was sold, but still good to have a gander at how they appear, kit wise, ect; they look to me like one cutter is fitted within another, then the whole block and punch, is some how crimped or threaded together as just "one punch tool" !

Good for you too, finding the same else where but at a reduction on the price listed to this one in eBay,de It's always a nice little fix, finding the right equipment, I'll try find something similar, or the same; but I'm now wondering where I'd get the Viton rubber, as well as the lead, in small sheets, ect ? I will try eBay and Google it too, but did you struggle finding these materials, more in bulk or small sheets, ect ?

Thanks,

Jon .

 

Please, just call me HD, the Miss part of my sig was just to avoid confusion.

The inner cutter fits into it's own recess at the base of the punch and then outer cutter slips over the base of the punch and the whole thing is secured by the bolt.

If you search for locheisen on eBay.de various sets will appear, set the search to 'Gebraucht' on the sidebar to show only used items and some sets like mine will appear, if you keep and eye on the search a good set will show up now and again.

I've been tempted by this set http://www.ebay.de/itm/14-tlg-Locheisen-Ausschlageisen-Stanzeisen-Satz-/121514970799 which is suitable for puching washers in two steps, the centering point is fixed and would make centering easier and the sizes are interesting.

These tools are the low end of the market, it would be very easy to spend £200 on a comprehensive set to cut washers in a single go.

Viton can be had from eBay at inflated prices, local engineering firms may sell you some for less and it can be found online in larger sheets. I get off cuts (sheets that have been had large swathes of material laser cut from them) from a local engineering firm for free, nothing left for their use, but I can get a lot of washers out of the remaining material.

For lead sheet I would try a reputable scrapyard, they usually have a good assortment and will sell it for a fair price.

HTH

HD

 

Hi HD,

Wow, there's some very useful information there that you've very kindly added and I've already got it snipped and saved, I will keep searching for the materials needed and of course the right or better quality brands, for the tooling also required.

I had a few hrs last night, reaming through the eBay dot de, Sellers extensive listings and checked a good number on my 'watch' listings; so that's a start as well as following search's for 'hollow punch chisels', which returned plenty of different variations with not just visual quality to mind, but also the myriad different sizes there was to chose from.

The materials, which ya seem to already have a good handle on fortunately, will be another search a.s.a.p. that I'll be needing to follow and get on with nearer too; the scrapyard tip, does seem a good place to make a start for the lead required, so will give that a go & also will try to source some Viton sheeting, which possibly might be heavily used within the car auto or plumbing industries ?

I've still to fully read and follow more on with what you've very nicely and considerately added here, there's some really good pointers & I'll have a go later tonight hopefully, at checking out the more accurate way of placing search's, with Germanys eBay site.I've a few hollow punch chisels that I'm already onto, so will for now just take to finding those locally & online.

Paying up to the figure you've quoted would be a bit too much for me right now, but I can certainly see the appeal of having an all encompassing cutting kit, to solve most problems regards fuel and air pressure proofing.

Thanks a lot for your input and advice in this, as eventually being in a position to DIY on any size washer, gasket or seal; will not just speed up repairs, but will also be a fun kind of challenge, most rewarding even if things don't go quite as planned at first.

(BTW, still ramping towards re-spraying the Higgins fount, fully; I've just the undercoat on as of now, so the "knee wobbling" top coat and lacquer, is the mountain or hopeful 'little hill', still left to climb and get right).

Jon.

 

I think I will just finish by saying that you are best off starting with the cheap punches and Viton.

2mm Viton is a good substitute for lead in my experience.

A set of digital calipers to take measurements helps as do old packets of washers which may no longer be suitable for service, but will offer a good template.

Good luck with your paint job!

 

Hi there,

Yes, I'd been thinking about some digital calipers, as the manual ones have sometimes been difficult to get into the threaded areas precisely & give only a marginal reading; but not having ventured in to making the washer seals before, have found the brass slide rule, good enough up till now.

Still hesitating on which set of hollow punches to buy, though I've some already sighted; there's some cheap enough ones listed, that look to be good enough in quality. 2 to 4 mil, on on upwards to around an inch diameter, is what I'll more than probably settle with.

I found some lead, but it's 4 mm's thick abouts, so will try hammering it thinner; with the Viton search, I'm still struggling on, so if you've any pointers later please, this would really be appreciated ?

Thank you, I'll bat on for now though . ,

Jon .

 

I don't really like digital callipers. They function very well of course and are much easier to read. I have one here somewhere but I found the damn batteries tended to be dead every time I wanted to use it. Then I ran out of spare batteries and they cost money. It all got too frustrating so I am back using a good quality vernier again. Old fashiond maybe but it works right out of the box every time. ::Neil::

 

Sometimes I can be seen dropping the things I've just bought, as I leave the shop I've been running amok in . . .. "Buy . Buy . Buy . Yes' and I'll have that too while I'm here" . .. !

So maybe moving on to the digitals is a little short sighted of me, as I hardly use the manual verniers as it is, though they are there when needed; it's annoying enough having to top up the camera batteries frequently, so I might just dally a bit more with the 1/0 callipers. Things are tight enough as it is & I just need to get used to wearing the spec's more (or enjoy wearing them more, ect).

Struggling either side of a single mil marker, nearer or further away on the verniers, particularly with the right eye; started to give me headache around the right temple, acute but waning after 20 sec's thank fully.

I'll bang the spec's on for now; nice though all the same, should there be a set in Santa's sock at the end of the year. . . (he he)

Right, on to the re-spray again; the weather's just below mild, I'll risk it . . .

Ta,

Jon .

 

...Doesn't take long to learn to read the Vernier scale on the manual ones...

......Digital ones are useful for repetitive work and for fine work but the cheaper ones aren't worth bothering with..... and as you say when you dig 'em out the flippin' batts are flat or the damp has got to it......

.....Or when they are working you nudge them and onto the floor they go.....

The better made ones are also easier to read???

 

Well, I suggested digital calipers as they are easily readable and fairly accurate for very little money, but yes, they constantly need zeroed and the batteries don't last.

I'm not going to suggest someone goes out and buy a set with a dual reading dial to start with, however much a joy they are to use.

If you are happy using manual calipers, that's fine.

 

I think it'd be best for now if I just turn another light on and put the specs on, I couldn't see myself using them that much anyway; though I have an enquiring mind for engineering & find it still excites me, I know my limitations and the tolerances with washers & seals (as a beginner from year dot) will become more apparent to importance, as & when I get off my rear and buy the cutting chisels (which I will do, still hovering on which ones) .. . .

Incidentally, same subject, different quarter, . . has anyone seen the Oz seller's line of Viton and other washer/ seal materials; I think their bay ID is "hytec" or something similar ?

Top listings them, they are !!

Ta, Jon.