So is this a Petromax or cheap copy?

I bought this Lamp at the weekend. My aim was to buy a Petromax for lighting the garden during BBQ's etc. I thought the globe looked dodgy, but am i right in thinking this is made up of several different lamps in the past? A messed up Fettle perhaps? Thoughts please and some pics below. Some of the pics are a little blurred due to handling a 2.5 year old so please forgive me

The Fount. Says made in Germany


The Lid (sorry not sure of it's proper name)


The pump handle


Should there be a Blow torch?



The rest of the gubbins. And where the heck does the little meths burner fit?




There is nothing i can see on the base, or though there seems to be a fair degree of verdigris.

Your thoughts oh wise ones.

 

Hi, although I am not a "wise one", it looks like an Aida with a Butterfly pump knob (although I have no idea as to whether that globe is from an Aida!).

It does have a "blow torch", just it's missing the blower tube and the lever that shuts it off when it's finished with (if you try to light it without that you aren't going to get much pressure to build up!).

The meths pre-heater just sits around the vapouriser and is located by the screw that fixes the cage to the tank. You may find this useful: http://light.papo-art.com/tech-n-info/Petromax_technical/restore_pmax_dissassemble.html

HTH

 

Excellant Guide Expat, many thanks for the link. Glad it is Petromax, jus wrong globe and the wrong pump. This will be my first project to get stuck into. How do i know what CP this unit is? or is that dependant on the mantle?

 

Have a look at the jet - it should have stamped numbers on it

 

Actually it is not a Petromax, it is an Aida. I'm no expert on these brands, but at some point Petromax bought Aida and the lamps came out of the same factory.

Yours looks like it comes from Thailand or India and has been repaired with whatever was at hand and fitted. Original Aida parts should be possible to find, though you might have to be patient. Petromax parts will fit. Try going through the gallery and looking at Aida lanterns for reference.

 

Neither.

It uses the Petromax 'system' so in that regard it's a copy or clone. But "cheap" and all that implies? - no, not at all; Aida were a well-respected manufacturer.

It's had a few replacement parts over the years to keep it running but that's what happens...

 

The Aida brand was managed by Petromax from around 1928. The lamps were made in the Old Aida factory up to around 1938-40 and after 1951 both Aida and Petromax were made on the same production line. This one looks to be a late 1930s tank and probably most of the bits are genuine Aida. Old Aida jets are square section and Petromax are hex. I can't remember if they are compatible but I have a feeling they may not be. Most other Petromax bits wil fit and work though and as a last resort you can replace the whole valve generator set up with Petromax parts. ::Neil::

 

Thanks for the Advice and thoughts Mackburner. I wish this lamp could tell it's story and has been well used for the temporary repairs and jury rigging thats gone on.

I am slowly gathering the basics for fixing this, and then will get stuck in, your advice re the jets will be noted. It seems to me to be brass, not chrome, so is soaking it in Citric acid the right thing to do? Also should acid get into the fount itself or is it not a problem as long as i wash it out later?

 

What I don't understand is this: the fount says AIDA, the hood says AIDA, so why would it be a petromax ?

 

Thats easy Wimve. I am new to this game, and had read somewhere in another forum that Aida was Petromax. I put two and two together and got 5, as I thought Petromax was the Brand name and Aida the company behind it.

 

I recognise that avatar Wimve, but not against your name!!

Anyways, Is a BMC an Austin or a Morris? Looks like the same with Aida & Petromax. Mackburner has I think answered that one.

 

In reviewing possible spares I might need, it seems there are different CP parts. Is the CP dependent on the lamp or the parts you fit to achieve different strength? If it is lamp dependent, any ideas what CP This lamp is?

 

It's likely to be either 350 or 500cp. I would personally go for a 350 jet & needle for your new parts (but that's just personal preference!)

 

I suppose 350cp or 500cp depends on what you want to use it for.

For me, 350cp is a bit bright but just about manageable for garden / BBQ use whereas 500cp is annoyingly, dazzlingly bright for that purpose and I have to get right out of the way. On the other hand, if you want to hoist the lantern into the roof of a building, way above eyeline, for general illumination of a wide area then 500cp is probably what you want...

 

Well theoretical that isn't possible because I made it.
But people always steel what they like.
I have had a discussion about my avatar on a Thai lamp forum. That was hard and difficult. Why use someone else his avatar ?

 

What does the number on the jet tells you ?
350cp or 500cp ?
Maybe you may take a look here:Petromax dating . It shows the lantern parts patented by Ehrich&Graetz. The manufacturers of the Petromax.

 

I will check Wimve and thanks for the advice. As you can tell, still much to learn

 

Ah! I seem to remember it on the Be Back Later forum. I thought it was Christers', but may very well be remembering wrong. An age thing.

 

It's a "Franksteinlamp"

There are a lot of licenced Petromax trademarks:

Aida, Hipolito, Sea Anchor, Butterfly, Klaebishc...

 

In fact Ehrich& Graetz invented and manufactured a lantern under the name Petromax. This design was soon copied by a lot of firms after E&G stopped making them.

AIDA, Hipolito where making in license or part of the E&G company. And there where wholesalers (?) like Racek who sold petromax design lantern under their name.

 

Licenced production only happened for the duration of the patents which in most countries is 15 years or so. A design patent in the UK was 7 years but could be extended a further 7. The last patent of any significance for Petromax lanterns was October 1964 so by about 1980 anyone could copy the design without any legal problems and after that certainly no licence was required. Petromax and Aida were brands in the same ownership so no need for licence there. There probably was some licenced production in Argentina because they were making Petromax designs in teh 1950s but we know that was legal because Petromax sent an engineer out there to help set up the factory. However the patents were country specific so if a patent was not applied for in a country such as China then copies were not illegal. Hipolito were not licenced copies of Petromax. Early examples are Swedish copies and later they were made side by side with Petromax lamps but by then the patents had long expired so no permission was required. All the Far East copies are just that and not licensed production. ::Neil::

 

...sorry to contradict you, Wim! As explained earlier, this particular lantern must actually have been made by Graetz company in Altena/Germany, because it is the same construction like the 1950++ Petromax. Of course some parts obviously have been replaced by the previous owner(s), so that it's now a bit of a "Franken Lamp".
The brand "AIDA" was owned by Graetz in the years after the war (until they went out of production) and preferably used for export items, since this brand name was better introduced than Petromax to some foreign countries.

BR, Martin

 

No sorry, in fact that is what I meant. Only it is Graetz indeed.
There are a lot lantern out there with the Made in license stamped on them so not all where made in Germany or by Graetz.

 

Is that why some of the Aida-models as ex. the 1214 almost only is to be found in Asia?

Claus C

 

Is any Aida ever identified as "made under license" as ex. the Primus "Høvik" or are you only talking about copying the lamp, just without using the name?

Claus C

 

Well yes, there are a lot AIDA's made in license.
The 1250, 1350 an 1550. These are made in license by Hipolito Portugal. I am pretty sure Graetz did the quality control.

Biggest problem with Petromax design models is that all parts can be swapped around and fit.

 

Are those Aidas marked different on the tank then, as ex. "German Regd" instead of "Made in Germany"?.

Claus C

 

Both.
Made in license and made in Germany on the burner assembly hood and regd. made in Germany on the outer hood.
And Regd. Made in Germany on the tank.

BUT I only checked this at two 1250 lanterns.

 

Thanks Wim.

Is it so, that the models that came after Petromax took over the production-control, mostly went to foreign countries as Martin K suggest
Please correct me if I misunderstood you MK.


Claus C

 

Claus,

I try to stick to evidence and not assumptions.
E&G and later Graetz made Petromax named lanterns. They owned the brand AIDA.

By the end of the sixties Graetz in Altena didn't produce petromax lanterns anymore.

The petromax brand was well known in the far east, due to the whole saler Racek in India.

These are the facts (above).
----------------------
Then the Dutch civil defence had a stock pile of AIDA lanterns, mostly 1250 models (Branded as said above) as well as Hipolito and Coleman.
These where bought during the cold war era. So assuming the 70ties.

The German army/NATO had huge stock piles of Petromax, Hipolito, Geniol branded matt 500cp lanterns.
I have never seen evidence of who made these.

Unless we where given false information these where not made in Altena. So logical I switch to Hipolito as a manufacturer.

What also makes things complex is the second world war. After that Germany and German things didn't go well with most people all over the world.
My guess is that since petromax was more associated with Germany a brand as AIDA and Hipolito didn't bring up unwanted emotions.

Why ?
Well if you make a batch of identical 250cp lanterns somewhere in Europe why brand them different ? But NOT with petromax.
We only know Hipolito as a manufacturer.

Also: why use old rapid levers on some of these AIDA 1250 ? The cast iron type was already developed into a rocker type.
Again why ? Was there an old pile of levers laying around somewhere ?
We don't know.

And we will never know because Heinze, being the last who can tell us, doesn't want to tell and has thrown away their petromax legacy which also includes the Hipolito legacy in 2007. This was written to me by one of the Peter Heinze a few weeks ago.