Hi DP2, What country ALDI do you talk of? In Germany ALDI is no Tunnock clone. I prefer the original. No irony, just fun. Was delivered.
Aldi sell a lovely caramel water biscuit very much like the ones from Tunnocks but are a bit less expensive despite being very nice. In the event of a no deal brexit I fear that they will become more expensive and due to customs delay and trade barriers may result in shortages in availability. Whilst I could live without my favorite caramel wafers I fear that the same problem would occur with many other products including essential foodstuffs and medication.
No doubt the same folk who fill two huge supermarket trolleys at Christmas when the shops are closed for only one day, will create artificial shortages by stockpiling. Still, I'm sure we can blame the empty shelves solely on Theresa May. Anyway, if the doom-mongers are to be believed, it will be completely impossible to export anything at all after Brexit and I imagine that a Ben Nevis-sized mountain of uneaten Tunnock's Caramel Wafers will accumulate as a result. Of course, since no food will be imported from Europe either, we'll have not much else to subsist on except these tasty chocolate/caramel treats (washed down with copious quantities from the Irn-Bru lake, naturally). Nevertheless, I feel confident we will be able to spare Willi another couple of boxes, post-Brexit, to tide him over until normality returns...
You just don't get it, the UK is now very much part of Europe whether you like it or not.with many European companies trading in the UK and many UK companies trading in the rest of Europe all with cross border frictionless supply chains and distribution networks. A no deal exit is going to result in chaos. Whatever your views brexit has already damaged the economy and has caused division and upset to us all with family members and friends all arguing about it. The country is in a constitutional crisis, I will never forgive 'dodgy Dave' Cameron for his idiotic idea of calling a yes / no referendum for such a complex question.
The country is in a govermental crisis - its civil servants and politicians have forgotten what they are for, and faced with the possibility of having to 'govern' once again, are in crisis. Whether we "get it" depends on ones point of view. We have been part of the European continent geographically ever since such boundaries have been set up. What a great many people are not happy with is the political direction the EU has taken. It serves the EU alone, but through the customs union which has manacled all who join into the political project - THROUGH the auspices of TRADE, and bit by bit the ratchet has increased to lock in all the participants into its POLITICAL core. Should this matter? Maybe that is what is not understood. If only the EU was about trade - but it isn't. Most people I have met have had empathy with 'leave'. Those who wish to 'remain' have mostly been reasonable in conversation, though a few have become hostile - though only through comments on politically based blogs. That is a great shame, as we are all in the same country and should wish to be united as such. We cannot turn back the clock, nor should we want to, rose tinted glasses do not come into it. The real danger in becoming part of a federal/united states of Europe, is that at its core it is a dictatorship wherein the lead players nominate each other; where the law is based upon corpus juris; and where our armed forces are under the command of the EU army - not our monarch or our government. As this comment, and DP2's comment has touched on the political - I would be happy to have the moderator remove both. Derek Reynolds.
I suppose it boils down to whether you identify yourself as British or European, I consider myself to be the latter despite its imperfections. In the past the English channel has kept this collection of nations and islands at arms length from mainland Europe but with improved transport links and freedom of movement that barrier has all but disappeared. Those who advocate a hard brexit are looking through rose tinted spectacles and that's the kindest thing I can say.
Already before the Referendum, and not linked to UK at all, I used to say, Democracy is a system, in which the majority has the right, to be wrong. Lesson learned, democracy must get our support in the poll. Else, majorities shift. I never skipped a vote. Hope this experience will create positive impact on poll participation in UK. For whatever subject.
The English Channel, nor any sea or ocean, stop Britain; the Romans; Dutch; French; Spanish; Belgians from developing Empires, nor did it stop global trading or being bombed come to that. We are part of Europe as are all the individual countries that make it up. Each has its own traditions, customs, and architecture. Nationally, I am British, says so on the passport, not that I need to be reminded of it by that. Generations before me are British, though go back far enough and there's a bit of Irish in there. It's all imperfect, but I'll take British imperfection over European.
It is very simple: Lesson one: if you order one article it cost money. Buy more articles it costs less money. Make trade agreements for a region, like say Europe, and it will cost even less. It has nothing to do with political colour or supremacy in the past or self control. But remember : the Chinese will have the last laugh and win the most. Be in in Europe or with the US.
Brexit and Trumpism are mirror images. They both emanate from the political Right. Both appeal to the same theme of resentment. " They are laughing at us" " We're being taken advantage of". Both appeal to nativism, =British identity. Both appeal to intolerance , xenophobia , racism and have stoked them publicly in both countries with very visible results, like the mosque attacks. Both are backward looking " Make America Great again or from Catherine Blaiklock who just resigned from Farage's new Brexit party. “I want my country back. I want seaside donkeys on the beach and little village churches, not acid attacks, mobs and mosques.” Not to say that all Leavers feel this way but like in America this ideological paradigm has proven extremely powerful and led to support for ideas and policies that simply leads people to support policies that are against their best interests and the common good. This paradigm has been activated by the right wing political class and a faction of the financial class in each country. For example Steve Bannon " Trump's Brain" and Kelly Ann Conway, were hired not by Trump himself but made available to him by the Mercer family, Billionaire far right wingers . Farage considers himself a friend of the President and was a frequent visitor to the Trump camp before the election, even he saw the similarities and shared interest. Trumpism has been a disaster in America , governmental, socially, economically so its Cousin Brexit will be equally destructive.
Trump's election was simply the reaction of ordinary moderate voters to the insane loony left Hillary/Bernie/AOC socialist identity politics alternative. America has actually been doing better under him than it had been for many years before. The Left's stifling of dissenting opinion, free speech and debate has directly resulted in the radicalism on the Right. In any society there will always be a fringe minority that is intolerant, xenophobic or racist. But it can not be truthfully claimed that Trump or Farage express such sentiments. Brexit will turn out to be the best thing that happened to Britain since it became entangled in the then EEC. The EU is economically a sinking ship and an utterly corrupt anti-democratic authoritarian institution with ambitions of empire. It will end in tears and sorrow if not worse. The Brits will be well out of it whatever the short term cost.
Well, it is "The Lounge", and whilst politics can be a deeply personal subject, scratching the surface can open deep wounds. Thank you Phil. Britain was led into the EEC/EU without the consent of the British people under the auspices of a trading block. Had they been told of the loss of sovereignty (and you can argue about whose sovereignty 'til the cows come home) there would have been uproar. Not until the thirty year rule passed did the truth emerge - Heath lied, and he was not alone. Several have done so ever since. What is in the best interests of Britain may not be in the best interests of the "common good" - or should that be communist good? We are not out yet, and every attempt bar none is being taken to prevent that action. Over twenty years without the EU's books being audited and balanced? If that's not indicative of an illegal construct - nothing is. Yet no action is taken against same, and our government is complicit. Further, it considers itself above the Law. Sorry if this offends Hanzo, but the origins of the EEC/EU needs to be researched from actual data, not from some utopian ideal of a common good. Slavery was once deemed a common good, and it still goes on. No-one is "common", we are all individuals with personal traits and characteristics just as whole Nations are. It does not therefore automatically lead to fighting, but to an appreciation of the differences - until agitated by certain puppets who whip people into some nationalistic frenzy triggered by incidents planned in advance with the ultimate goal of seeking power for power's sake alone. The frustration and confusion experienced during that past two and a half years has also been deliberate, a ploy to get people to give up on hoping for a straightforward departure. It could have happened, but was scotched from the outset. That gives a clue as to 'who's in bed with who'. Kissy kissy hand-shake hug. Others will have different opinions.
Discussions like this one are pretty dangerous to get involved. I'll nevertheless try to put a few thoughts on paper. What is best for the British people has to be decided by themselves. I have my own view on this and some of my UK friends know this very well, but it is up to them to make up their own minds . In some twenty years from now maybe it will be possible to see wether leaving the EU was a good choice or not. The clownesque situation the UK is in now however is to blame on those that started the Brexit rage. I very strongly feel that Farage and his lot are no more than windmakers, only concerned about their easy, well payed jobs. They never expected to "win" the referendum, so never thought about what had to happen next. On the contrary, they ran away from what they caused. If they would have been serious about Brexit, there would have been a decent plan, guidelines etc. about what to do if they'd win the referendum. It would have taken them a couple years of hard work to do this, without a guaranty their hard work would be of any use. But then, that's a risk one has to take. This lot didn't think at all! That would also give the voters at least an idea of what was to be expected, and would have given an idea of the difficulties a decision this important would bring with it. This would/could have given the UK a decent start. Theresa May was against Brexit but democratic rules force her now to defend this and guide the UK through it. She has not received much help from those that wanted Brexit. Chaos is created by all this, and only after the chaos has been solved and all the dust settled will the UK be able to get things going as they want. This means many years will be lost, costing vast amounts of money not only to UK people and businesses but also to EU people and businesses. All in all a lose/lose situation. Best regards, Wim
I fully agree that the implementation has been a complete shambles and that the negotiated treaty (the "May Deal") reads like the surrender document of a country that lost a war. This is certainly not the doing of the Brexiteers but of the negotiators, or should we rather say, capitulators. Trying to fob this off onto the British public as a true Brexit is outrageous and borders on treason. Duplicity, delay and brinkmanship have been the hallmarks of the whole process so far. No wonder the latest opinion polls show that a greater majority than ever before want simply to leave on time, deal or no deal.
Well. as I indicated in the title, I bought a few things that I might need in case things went 'pear shaped' but even now no-one knows what the conditions we'll be under which we leave... assuming we do leave and just how things will pan out when we do. I find it ironic that the Conservative Government of Edward Heath took us in and another Conservative Government decided to take us out, by which I mean David Cameron of course. And it seems evident that the leavers did not expect to win. The day after the vote, each and every one of them disappeared into the shadows, because they didn't have a clue how to tackle a task they never expected to be faced with. I believe we were lied to when we joined and we have been lied to about leaving and what that will mean for everyone. Someone posted the 'Yes Minister' clip which basically told the truth... that we were only in it to wreck it and having done that, we're leaving. The whole process has been divisive from the start and has fostered xenophobia to a massive degree. Both major political parties are split down the middle. As I believe I've written before, half the Tory party want to remain for the economic advantages they think the EU offers, while the other half want to leave because they hate the 'social contract' aspects such as employment rights, health and safety, the ECHR etc which they think hampers their business operations. The Labour Party are split for exactly the same yet reasons but turned on its head: they like the social contract side of membership but mistrust the corporate machine that they think the EU has become. Worse than this, Labour remainers and Tory remainers have different motives so they couldn't band together if they wanted to, same as Tory Brexiteers and Labour Brexiteers who basically hate each other. Same with the country which is now split down the middle, pitting county against county, family against family, class against class. It's a sad political comedy the like of which we have seldom if ever seen before. The English are a skeptical bunch in the extreme and always have been, and brexit has made us extremely wary of all politicians and rightly so. With regards to Europe, it was always my view that England should either be in all the way, or out completely. No half measures, but over the years we've messed everyone about continually, like that one kid in the class who can only eat food without onions and no pips, or the one who has to sit on his own during religious content... in other words, we've made a bloody nuisance of ourselves at every turn because we didn't want bendy bananas, or was it straight ones we didn't want... in all the 'fun' I forget which. The reason we never adopted the Euro was obvious... the political classes knew we'd leave sooner or later so why bother, and here we are. So now we're on the brink of leaving, most government ministers are grubbing around looking after their own interests and that of their parties while ordinary folk are once again being lied to at every turn, sometimes we're even told contradictory messages by the self same people, simply because it suits them. We are genuinely being left to our fate because they don't give a s#1t about the general public and never did. Oh... and just because I now have a couple more bags of sugar and an extra sack of flour, I have not become the anti-christ! I have always, and will continue to look after my family above all else. I didn't create this pigs-ear of a mess but I guarantee you we'll come out of it the best way we possibly can. If other people feel like trusting their elected politicians... good luck with that, but if I can smooth things over a little while the headless chickens feed us to the lions, that's what I'll do. Don't know exactly what's going on in the US but a man who boasts about molesting women and takes the piss out of people with cerebral palsy is not my kind of guy, sorry.
Derek Everyone overtly understands the common good, it's the general welfare of a nation, what does the most good for the most people, its not a conspiracy against the individual. A million people marched against Brexit on Saturday not because they are radical individualists concerned with their own welfare to the exclusion of other's interest but because they care about themselves and others in their nation and the way Brexit will harm British welfare overall. The common good wants justice for everyone and considers everyone's interest equally. People like Moog are in fact radical individualists who value trade, the free market, property rights ABOVE the common good which explains why he won't compromise a hard Brexit and why 1 million Briton's came out on Saturday to call a halt to Brexit because any Brexit scenario harms the UK in one way or another. Does the British public really care about the perceived injustice of English entrance into the EU, no, because the pressing problems of Brexit makes that small potatoes and irrelevant . Concern about Brexit slowing economic growth, jobs impact , socially mobility, contraction of the money supply, free fall of the pound, social ,regional and national division and endless conflict are Brexit impacts that will seriously harm Britain and don't make Brexit worth that.
Phil An EU diplomat rightly pointed out that " Britain is not America or China , it can't go it alone in the world" . He is right . America by dint of the most powerful military in the world , 800 military bases dotting the globe, control of the world's energy supply and world money supply pegged to the dollar', is the sole world superpower, it has the power of independence because it can dominate the globe ,it has the leverage to be rule maker by rewarding or punishing other nations within a world system it runs ruthlessly . Britain isn't America, it has no leverage against the 27 nation compact of the EU, so it will never be able to outflank the EU in negotiations because its one nation against 27 . It can't threaten the EU with anything except denial of fishing rights etc. Brit negotiations are restless and toss and turn because of that fact, everywhere it turns there is the discomfort of the harm Brexit will do. The Chinese will have the #1 economy in the world based on the Belt and Road Initiative ,a vision to integrate all of Asia and part of Europe into one trading block under Chinese leadership. China is active everywhere from Bulgaria to Germany to Syria to Pakistan putting its plan into action. Contrast that with the British government announcing this week mega FTA deals with mighty Fiji and powerful New Guinea and we see Britain isn't China either. Brit economic strength is no match for the the Chinese. The British FTA with China will see Britain as China's diplomatic spear carrier, the price of any FTA with China will be Britain supporting/defending Chinese international initiatives whether it wants to or not, Britain won't have a choice. Any FTA with America will be even worse for Britain, trade experts say flatly the American's have all to gain and the Brit economy will have to lay down and just take it with few benefits to boot. Yet Brexiters insist they can replace the EU with American and Chinese trading partners. With the qualified exception at the moment of the U.S. the rest of the world is increasingly interdependent and integrated economically , the way Britain existed within the EU with privileges .Yet the Brexit dream wants the opposite counter current vision of a self isolated , self sustaining, self reliant , free and independent England , that will just be okay left to itself on its own. The UK doesn't have the power to make this vision of the Brexit outcome a reality without big sacrifices from the general population and even then it looks elusive.
Trump voters are not moderates by any measure they have identified themselves as right wing populists, the Republican Party has seen many high profile resignations because Trump supporters have taken it over and turned the party even further right, toward an authoritarian populism . Even before Trump the Republicans were labeled America's white nationalist party.The Trump campaign merely ramped up the message . In America those with true Left wing Socialist politics number less than 5% of the population how could they attack mainstream political parties and influence public opinion. In America the culture war was actually declared by the right to roll back the gains of the Civil Rights Era and the participatory democratic spirit of the 1960's .The " conservatives" oppose political correctness, diversity, equality, women's rights and support" traditional "hierarchies in America, men over women, rich over poor, whites over blacks, natives over the foreign born, heterosexual over LBGT. In America its not a fringe that is intolerant but a massive wave of intolerance spurred on by the President and his followers. Increases in the number of hate groups and there mainstreaming, like the Alt Right, Breitbart. Increases in the number of hate crimes and severity like the Synagogue massacre in Pennslyvania. The administration lessened the authority of the FBI to monitor white supremacist groups encouraging there activity. These same groups from white supremacists like David Duke to American Neo Nazi Richard Spence praise Trump and claim his as one of their own . Trump has expressed racism and there is no doubt here in America that the President is a flat out racist. Trump reportedly called Africa a shit hole. He said American blacks were too stupid to vote for him. On driving through a black New York City neighborhood he said " only blacks can live like that." The President's Muslim travel ban and the MASSIVE round up and expulsion of Mexican undocumented are very clear examples of the way xenophobia , bigotry and hatred have become official government policy in America .
Hanzo, your comments seem to be all about a capacity for aggression and power over other nations. Britain is not looking to punish anyone or to be a world superpower, but is the fourth wealthiest nation globally. All the 17.4 million people who voted leave, want their independence back, the ability to make our own laws, trade with the whole world as we used to - and to a degree still do, and not cow tow to an unelected comission and government in a foreign land. Up to one million people parading in the streets - one million was the estimate by the organisers, independent observers thought around 250,000, but even so - prancing around and banging drums does not represent the majority who voted leave. They are upset at not having 'won', and so want another referendum for the people. Sorry - we had one, did they not notice? If we are 'allowed' to leave (that's one indication of how much control we have over our own destinies), our immediate future economically will go through hard times, but we've been here before. And if it has slipped your attention, Britain is not the only country in the European block that has its people railing against their governments for their unjust and heavy handed policies that affect the working classes where the divisions between rich and poor are forever widening. Such details are not widely reported in the British press, being so fixated as they are on Brexit to the point of nausea. The common good of Britain, is not being helped by a technocratic bureaucrasy based in another country. Our agriculture has declined under the CAP, and our fishing fleets are virtually defunct under the Common Fishing Policy, while foreign vessels can fish up to our 12½ mile limit. Agriculture, Fisheries & the Environment Archives - Campaign for an Independent Britain Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) | Britishseafishing.co.uk Fishing for Leave Britain is an Island. Fishing is important. Just saying.
I hesitate to get involved here but some/most of what's written above is (charitably) no more than opinion presented as fact and some of it is total fiction i.e. complete bollocks. On the other hand, I find Derek's comment (#54 directly above) to be calm, measured and entirely reasonable. Also, just sayin'...
But David everyone is aware you're one of the most opinionated people on the forum and that's fact. You can't call a difference of opinion right or wrong. You and Derek share the same opinion based in shared political beliefs, Conservative British Nationalism, so its not surprising you disagree with my views. To me its that you are uncomfortable with a different set of facts or views is all. I've not invented anything I've said it comes right from the British and American mainstream press. Its fairer to just say we have different opinions of Brexit which are being explored in the thread.
You believe what's written in the British mainstream press? - wow, enough said. As far as my opinions are concerned, yes, I have them and, when asked, I give them. But they're related to lamp issues mainly and I'm careful not to present them as 'fact'. Mostly they're to do with the issue of 'to polish or not to polish'. I'd say (respectfully) that if either of us is "opinionated" then it's you, far more than me. I knew I shouldn't have got involved. I'm out...
There is a take-away fish and chips shop here in Somerset West called Mikes Fisheries. The best hake fillet and chips that I know of. Generous portions, affordable and the hake is always fresh caught and done just right. Melts in the mouth.
