Dears, I am pretty glad to finish fettling and be able to post that Petromax 2821. Someone “prepared” that lamp for sell by spray painting it all over including all dirt, rubbish and all sort of crap painted/glued to the lamp. But 2821 is not a common lamp, made during WWII when brass was limited and all most part are steel, so it was worth the effort. Fettling story: 1. It was easy to get rid of new paint using Acetone. 2. Old WWII paint was practically immune to Acetone, so I had to use some steel brush and drill to clean the tank. 3. Tank was almost free of rust inside, but I derusted it inside and outside nonetheless. I made a rust protection using APP “R STOP” and additionally dedicated epoxy resign from inside. 4. I painted the tank but I left the frame just derusted (Evaporust was used instead od citric acid to protect the label with model number), cleaned and covered with “R STOP” for rust protection. Frame looks old and I like it. 5. Steel parts other than tank, frame and pump were derusted in citric acid solution and heat&quenched several times in boiled linseed oil. Pump parts were derusted and treated with “R STOP”. 6. NRV pip (made of natural cork) and gasket (made of leather) were replaced with my homemade Viton and lead seals. 7. Glass is very thin Jena Suprax so it has to be old. 8. I noted that characteristic for some WWII Petromax lamps slot cut in the nut with graphite packing. Lamp has new set of 150CP jet and needle. 200-300CP Luxor mantle. Somehow with that set of parts this is surprisingly bright lamp. Enjoy and all the best, Piotrek
A perfect restoration. Congratulations on the completion! Was this lantern used by the military or for home use?
Thank you @Camp numao - I am not an expert and most likely others may know better. As far as I know Petromax 827B were definitely used by military. There are some evidences of that and in general gasoline was used in military then: Petromax 2827B June 1944 | Classic Pressure Lamps & Heaters Military Petromax 827B, October 1941 | Classic Pressure Lamps & Heaters Other petroleum "green" Petromax lamps - I do not know. These are definitely WWII lamps, except for 2827 which is common lamp in Poland and there are documents that shows that it was manufactured also (mainly?) after the war.
Excellent restoration works and congratulations, @Piotrek Is there a date code? I notice that these green WWII-era Petromax(es) are mostly, if not almost entirely only found in Europe. I'd reckon they're very uncommon outside of Europe other than the ones purchased by collectors via ebay, etc elsewhere. Under Nazi Germany, I'd suppose there were no trade or export of any Petromax lanterns to other parts of the World during WWII which, might partly explain their scarcity outside of Europe. I wouldn't know if these 282x series of Petromax were solely meant for the military or had they also been available to civilians during that period. During the German occupation of Poland and other parts of Europe, some of the military lanterns had possibly been left behind by the Wehrmacht or other military units. If not coated with vitreous enamel, the otherwise older paint had already been fully cured. It would be a lot more resistant to acetone and many solvents. Other than mechanical means, the paint can probably only be removed with hot lye solution or methylene chloride strippers. Is there a footvalve for this Petromax? With the looped vaporizer, pressure relieve valve and other features present in the pictures, it does not appear to be meant for gasoline-fueling. But then I cannot be absolutely certain about some of these wartime Petromax(es).
Thank you Guys. @MYN There was no visible date code. Most likely there was painted/stamped date on the tank bottom, but these number often disappears after many years. I do not know the Petromax export/production policy during war time, but we can see that more and more steel parts/models were introduced. Nickel plating was sometimes replaced by green paint. Different configurations/variations of 821 and 826 (even green 828) were introduced containing more and more steel parts (pump, different frames, hood etc.). 282x have steel tanks. 2827 are almost all steel except for generator. As expected during and just after the war consistency in lamp production was not so crucial and they made these lamps somehow/anyhow depending on materials limitations, war policy etc. It seems that 2827 were manufactured during and after the war as well (some docs were presented on the forum by @Jörg Wekenmann in the past) and are quite common, but any other green lamps are rare even in Poland. If green colour means military - I do not know. Personally I would say that 827B were military lamps - there were whole sets of two lamps in boxes, spares etc. noted, just like more modern military sets. German and other more experienced collectors should know better then me regarding history and documentation. Footvalve - no there is not. The whole generator is just like in any other 821, so this is petroleum lamp. One more thing I can mention - Petromax steel tanks have really good rust protection from inside. 2827 collectors can confirm that as well. Even if rusted from outside tanks have no holes.
We have found partlists / drawings for the 2821 (and 2827) from 1941 and 1942 (and 1943). So it's probably a wartime model. It is reminiscent of the grass-green painted / enamelled models 821B and 827B, which, however, had a brass tank. To my knowledge, most of the 2827 models with olive green tanks and the separate manometer were manufactured shortly after the war until 1950, many of them as reparations.
Is there any specific kind of coating or plating on the inside? Or was it just there was fuel and coincidentally less exposed to the outside environment? I've came across steel cans of fuel that are full of rust on the outside but surprisingly rust-free on the inside despite being just partially filled with fuel.
That's a little new to me. I'm mostly aware that they did have certain Coleman lantern founts with internal rust protection liners, that are usually reddish in colour. I don't remember ever seeing or reading anyone ever mentioning about tank internal coatings on the Petromax.
Certainly so. I'm actually referring to the ones made of steel. Not that many except for some WWII ones. Maybe again, they're not too common elsewhere.
OK @MYN so I made some effort Look at the fuel inlet in pics below. There are clear remains of some reddish paint visible: Full lamp posted here: Petromax 2821 and from the post WW2 PETROMAX 2827B This is not rust, this is old reddish paint. Now you will notice that inside of that 2827B does not look like painted. I belive that this is due to poor quality pictures (colors) made inside. It is really hard to get a true color on pictures made inside. Then I just dismantled some rusty 2827 that I keep for parts and made more pictures of inlets and inside: Pictures were made using my mobile and are poor quality, but you notice reddish color. I reality, with bare eye the color is much more intense. A friend of mine who has >50 of PX 2827 has the same opinion. Additionally I do not belive that Petromax would not take care about rust protection inside their steel tanks. They still did a quality lamps with all parts painted, enamelled, nickel plated etc. Quality - Made in Germany But I may be wrong and this is just my personal point of view and I can change my mind in the future
I can confirm that there is effective rust protection in the steel Petromax tanks, I guess something like red lead, certainly not the healthiest option from today's perspective.
@Piotrek Thank you for the nice presentation and discussion stimulus I also have a Petromax 2821 It has exactly the same components as Piotrek's lamp . The green color is also the same as the rest of Piotrek's lamp on the top of the tank. The tank is coated inside with red anti-rust paint. The glass is labeled Baby Petromax.Unfortunately , it broke during cleaning. The material of the carburetor loop is made of brass and has a diameter 1mm larger than was usual for Petromax lanterns before and after the Second World War. My Petromax 2821 is stamped 143 on the bottom of the tank in almost faded blue ink , which clearly indicates January 1943 to me. I bought the Petromax 2821 in Austria in 2014.
Wow! @Piotrek Thank you for presenting the details of the restoration. I've read quite many on discussions regarding the red, sometimes grey lining coats on many Coleman products. Perhaps I had not been observant enough. This is the first thread that I've came to notice on the mention of similar anti-corrosion fount internal coating on a Petromax. Yes, the colour of the red coat is very close to that of rust, especially so when they're not new and also when coated with dirt and old fuel residues. In many of them on the older Coleman, the coatings are often compromised with age and fuel exposure over the years. Often partially flaking off. Many swore that denatured alcohol could quite easily lift the old coatings off. No info about their composition. In my opinion, if anyone would decide to replace it with a new tank lining coat, the most ideal would be an epoxy-resin-based product. Example, Caswell. Some have had good results with another product, the POR-15. It is not epoxy but a urethane-based product which cures better in the presence of moisture. For epoxy-based ones, it should not be just any regular epoxies. There is a vast number of grades and varieties of epoxies alone. The best ones that modern science could offer for continuous immersion in gasoline and other petroleum fuels are Novolac-epoxies. The highest-rated ones are virtually solvent-free, which means they do not contain any thinners/reducers. They're '100% solid-content' in liquid form when uncured or uncatalyzed. Any solvents or thinners deployed during manufacture or use would substantially degrade the performance or chemical/solvent resistance of the finished coating. The novolac-epoxy-based products are certified for use in any offshore and marine tankliners for storage and transportation of gasoline and many petroleum products. Such epoxies are completely resistant to acetone and most organic solvents once fully cured. They're also resistant to many strong acids and alkalies. Denatured alcohol would have no effect on it. These can only be removed mechanically, abrasive blasting, very high temperatures or only the strongest paint removers in the industry: methylene chloride. Coincidentally, many are also reddish or grayish in colour.
Thank you @Reinhard and @Martin K. for your input/support. @MYN - I will try learn more about Novolac-epoxies, but I can not get even Caswell in Poland. That 2821 tank was in good condition, but I used a FERTAN TAPOX epoxy liner anyway. It is dedicated to seal rusty car/motorcycles tanks etc. It is still German product and in red color I have no idea about paints used almost 100 years ago (most likely full of lead), but these were much better then majority of eco friently stuff sold nowadays. Now I will go back to work on my rusty Hasag tanks and definitely I will miss Petromax rust protection ... and in general brass tanks
Fertan Tapox should work as well. From Fertan in Saarbruecken, Germany? I don't think it is the novolac-phenolic solvent-free variety. It might not be as resistant but I think it would work well, since it is marketed by Fertan for use in petrol tanks. Attached are the msds for both component 1 and 2. A phenolic-novolac epoxy would contain at least a phenol-formaldehyde resin monomer in one of the components in addition to other chemicals. From the attached Fertan's msds of component 1 and 2 of the Tapox, you can find that a number of solvents are being included.
For info: attached here is also Caswell's tank sealer for part A and B. You'd notice the characteristic presence of phenol and formaldehyde in part A. There're also a number of components in part B that are 'trade secret' . Anyhow, I'd pretty much could guess what they basically would be... Ok, Caswell is clearly a phenolic-novalac epoxy product. It is solvent-free.
Thanks @MYN Impressive chemistry/chemicals knowledge I used Caswell in the past (still have a little bit left) and I like it a lot. I bought it on e-bay from US incl. shipping etc. so it was costly even before Mr. trump tax war. Recently, I could not get Caswell in Poland even from e-Bay from abroad. I will try to get it when feasible because it seems to be easier to use then Fertan. Fertan requires constant ventilation (oxygen) during epoxy curing because of these solvents that you mentioned. It seems that thicker layer of Caswell can be applied as well and I like that because it would reinforce rusted tanks. If you know other epoxy brands similar to Caswell then please let me know - maybe it will easier to get them in Poland.
I'm sorry @Piotrek , From what I'm aware of, there aren't many products that similar in composition as Caswell on the automotive gas tank sealers industry. POR-15 is a tank sealer but entirely different on the chemistry and is not an epoxy. That goes for products from KBS Coatings, Redkote, Kreem, etc too. The others are probably brands that are less heard-of. One of the reasons for such few options is that these automotive fuel tank sealers are somewhat niche market products and not exactly "legally-recognized', example, from DOT and other Govermental bodies. Many have been marketed as product kits for repairs of leaking or corroded fuel tanks which, in a way, would not be in compliance to many official safety standards in most countries. I do not know of any suppliers in Poland that carry any of such products. Perhaps they are not particularly popular there like in the USA, Australia and elsewhere. I do know of genuinely approved industrial/marine coating and lining products for fuel and petroleum tanks that are extensively used in the petrochemical and maritime industries. However, these are intended as fuel and chemical resistant corrosion protection products for structures and tanks that are not physically compromised, and not intended for repairs of fuel tanks and such. These are usually only available in 18 or 20-litre and larger packing sizes. Example: Jotun's Tankguard SF, PPG's Novachem 890LT, etc. All are fuel-resistant, solvent-free, phenolic-novolac epoxy products. They more resemble paint coatings but without the usual solvents. For spraying applications, only high-pressure airless spray guns are recommended. Not suitable for general compressed-air driven paintshop spray guns due to somewhat higher viscosities, without the solvents and reducers to ease the flows. I'm sure these are perfectly applicable on any lantern or stove founts with the right application techniques just like Caswell, etc. Only problem is the bulk (you don't need that much and these things don't have unlimited shelf lifes). There are not that cheap either.
Thank you @MYN for all info. It seems that currently I am left with Fertan sealant (approx. 50$) or smallest Caswell kit for approx. 150$ Some interesting YouTube movie made by Bruce Kuda linked below: Maybe in the future we will make a separate thread about epoxy use in more appriopiate section
Indeed...Caswell isn't cheap I'm sure there are still many epoxy products around. Many can be found in art and hobby shops for casting crafts. They are usually way less expensive. I believe some, but not all, might be applicable for tank and fount linings. Only sure thing is that they're unlikely to be the phenolic-novolac variety.
