Petromax 824 ?

One person says something and the others repeat it without checking.
I have shown you again and again that the 1960 vintage still has tank scratches and I have shown you again and again how to recognize the 1970,1971 and 1972 vintages.Here in the forum,people understood it Immediately, just not in Germany.
Erik,help me fix this incorrectly cemented code,no matter who doesn't like it.

 

Reinhard,
I said:
Your idea sounds reasonable may be probable. But it has not been proven nor has it been confirmed by literature.
Erik

 

Erik,
I say:
I myself have proven it again and again through photos and posts.
Some people have lost the ability to learn.

 

I have certainly not come across reading any Petromax with a stamped 4-digit date code which was made in 1960. I'm not sure if anyone else have seen it.
I'm pretty certain Reinhard had previously shown us in this forum with physical evidence about the '60s' coding which actually extends to the early 70s.

However, Dr. Hermann Lahde was a prominent figure in this field as inventor or co-inventor of several patents including those filed by Ehrich und Graetz AG during his time there.
It would be quite unlikely that he had stated or written the dating years incorrectly...

 

It would be nice if an excerpt of that book on the date coding could be shared here.

 

That might be difficult. I have the book, and I can not find mentioned the date code there.
The book deals about technics and design of "hydrocarbon appliances", not about petromax history.

 

A former employee of the Altena factory told to who was there on the Petromax meeting
in Menden that only the petromax 500cp lantern was made there. No other models or brands.

I honestly think this statement is nonsense! It makes no business sense at all
to manufacture one lantern (e.G. No. 523 + 829) in Altena and the other models (No. 821, No. 826, No. 827, No. 828)
at another location!

Were the AIDA lanterns then manufactured at a third location?
No! Logically, they were also made in Altena!

As I was able to find out, the hanging lamps were manufactured in Bregenz in the 1950s.

 

The 4-digit date codes were first used in the 1960's. Before that there were scratched Numbers on the tank bottoms.
Dr. Lahde left E&G and emigrated to the USA, so it would be highly unlikely that he reveiled the data codes for Petromax lanterns. Actually he worked for Aladdin Industries Inc. from 1947 to 1960 and for American Thermos from 1960 to 1966.

 

I would like to agree with Reinhard in that I have at least one lamp in my collection that I took out of an unopened box and this lamp has a four-digit code and was manufactured in 1970 based on the indications also given by Reinhard. The embossing “5003” on the base of the tank indicates that it was made on 09.12.1970 (a Wednesday).

 

With all respect to books, but this CPL forum has much more impact/influence all over the world then any book regarding pressure lamps. There is also @Mackburner The Pressure Lamps Catalogue - well respected source of info. Maybe Petromax date coding could be included/explained in PLC? Not to mention @Reinhard writing his own book (I would like to pre-order it once ready ).
all the best,
Piotrek

 

AIDA
Made in Altena West-Germany

 

Correct, but the focus after the war was not on kerosene lanterns but on electronics.
Please read all the Graetz Nachrichten of those years. Only a few times petromax lanterns where mentioned.
For a business as big as we think it was that is remarkable.

I am not at all saying I am right and somebody else is wrong. I only light up one side.
To all: Please do not make dating bigger then it is.

 

Graetz was indeed already focussing on the electronics, radios and other related businesses, well before the 1960s.
As for most, I'm only aware that the Petromax models that were made throughout the 60s were from Altena, Westphalia.
As for the dating codes for the 60s~70s, I'm still ignorant about the actual origin or the document source where it was first mentioned or stated.
It'd be a great if anyone could share the evidence here too.

 

Hi Myn,

the story with the tank bottom numbers started 5 years ago here on the Hytta Forum in Germany.
Forum Petroleum · Kompetent und unterhaltsam · Rund um alles was glüht, brennt oder qualmt·Seit 2000

As far as I know there is no written evidence from Graetz, Altena about the meaning of the tank bottom numbers.

Greetings
Jörg

 

Hi Jörg,
The first source that I've read that provided some info on the 4-digit '60s' code was Jan Moeller's Petromax 829 Restoration which, accordingly dated on September 2008 (pdf file attached). It was on the last page. I'm wondering if that supposedly dating info was later added as an update or had it actually been there since 2008?

I'm just thinking it is rather strange that I've not actually come across any evidence or document that originates from either E&G or Graetz on the meaning of those scratched or stamped numbers over the years as a collector.
Perhaps it is either non-existent or has not been discovered yet. Therefore, I remain as curious about it as ever.

 

I am a little irritated, I thought the code was mentioned in the book from Dr. Lahde.
Well, it was published on Jürgen Breidenstein's Website at least as early as 2003 with a reference to ...einer Übersicht aus dem Jahr 1962... ((taken from) an overview from 1962)

Erik

 

Hi Erik,

just have a look on Post 36.

Jörg

 

Jörg,
i was refering to that post, forgot the quote, sorry.
Erik

 

@Erik Leger & @Jörg Wekenmann

Thanks for confirming that I haven't gone completely mad... I've got the Lahde book, and I couldn't remember seeing any reference to a dating code. I went through it again without success and thought I'd leave it up to the Europeans to discuss this matter.


I note that the very useful Primus dating chart (Primus Dating Chart 1911 - 1964) was a combined effort of many people to establish: "Many thanks to Peter Benscher, Bo Ryman, Dr.Peter Watchorn, Neil McRae & Arne Aasgaard for their assistance in compiling and updating this chart."

Best regards

Tony

 

@Tony Press
The hint came from Ludwig himself in post 36.Ludwig is the most respected man in technical/scientific questions in the German lamp scene.

 

Yes, @Reinhard. I had read and noted Ludwig’s comment. I went back over the book to satisfy my own thoughts, and be able to confirm his.


Cheers

Tony

 

Thank you @ludwig for affirming that.
A pity that I'm not in the position to obtain a copy of Dr. Lahde's technical book at the moment.

 

As someone with only a few years' experience in the pressure lamp sector, and a biased one at that, I would still like to try and make my contribution.
As someone who is much more practical than theoretical, throughout my professional life I have always gone over things that were “written” so that they really worked well. What works well and always fits is simply more real to me than what is supposedly written and therefore proven? If it were otherwise, we would still believe today that the sun orbits the earth and that it is flat. That was written from the very top (at least for Catholics) and thus proven. How many centuries and blood did it take for most people to see it differently today?

 

It has nevertheless, taken a very long while for some facts to be universally believed and accepted.
Numerous ideas that were once regarded as nonsensical had only recently been 'proven' and accepted as facts. Therefore, it wouldn't be that surprising if currently 'accepted facts' be proven wrong again sometime in the future.
...Some go by faith, others only acknowledge after witnessing official documents of authority(regardless whether they are actually true or not). Still others would take hear-says as valid...
Cycles repeat. Everything is dynamic. Nothing lasts forever, including thoughts and beliefs.

 

Yes @MYN, i can fully agree and very well expressed!

 

Hello! I do not want to and I will not participate in this discussion. But without further comment I would like to show a facsimile of a document from the Graetz factory in Altena / Westfalia that has so far only been quoted by me and has been recited by so many others without closer knowledge. I hope it may cool the discussion down a bit. Jürgen

 

Danke !
I stand corrected. I was really convinced it was the Lahde book. (Must be the age)
So all the models mentioned where made in Altena !

 

@bausd (Jürgen)
Thanks for showing the document.That was well-intentioned but it doesn't really get us anywhere.
The document proves that the code was already known on February 1,1962.And it proves that all listed models were manufactured in Altena at this time.No surprise for me.So far ok .
But if you only have the number,without the date,and you can't see the lamp with its contemporary components,then you don't know whether it was manufactured in 1962 or 1972.
Remember that pressure lamps were still being manufactured in Altena in the 15th week of 1972,as you can see from the example shown from 1972 with the number corresponding 1723.

 

Thank you very much Jürgen @bausd for the picture of the fax document from the Graetz company in Altena. Dated 1962. Invaluable piece of info.
It does show all the relevant models and specifications.

Not to be in contradiction to anyone's valuable comments or info, in my humble opinion, Altena was certainly the centre of Graetz's company operations and where most related documents were legally released or exchanged.
However, that document might not necessarily prove that all the tabulated models were actually manufactured in the Altena factory. Remember that lanterns were already just a very small part of Greatz's business by 1962. Most of the factory grounds and resources would had most likely been allocated for the electronics and other major Graetz products.
Therefore, I would not still brush aside the possiblility that some lantern models might have be made in another factory location in Germany. If there is any further info that could prove otherwise, I believe it would certainly be welcomed by the Petromax fans .

Although the fax document does not mention anything on the coding that we take as dating information, it is still a very welcomed piece of info.

 

Without observing further feature details like what shown by Reinhard, the 1723 code might be confused as the date for Week 17, Year 1962 and 3rd day of the week.