Aladdin Australia

Matt, why is it so controversial that Aladdin may have had both petrol and paraffin versions?
I would rather say it's quite possible considering they are based on Radius lanterns, and the earliest of those were claimed to be made for both petrol and paraffin.
The earliest versions had a straight vapouriser (generator), which probably wasn't ideal for paraffin since they soon adapted the preston loop.

Detail picture of a Radius 120, courtesy of Nils S.:

 

@Carlsson

Christer,

Knowledge is power and so too experience. You have both I have neither.

I had no idea that Radius did petrol lanterns and that generator was supplied. Radius is certainly well down the list of my interests in petrol lanterns and Aladdin is very high on that list either.

I have never read of the possibility that Aladdin may have made petrol lanterns so I assume I'm the first to put that theory to the members. I also assumed, I'd be jumped on pretty hard.

What you have shown with the Radius, curtesy of @Nils Stephenson ,I now have zero doubts that Aladdin did supply petrol 1A's. At this early stage, I would be inclined to believe it was the war years and just after that they were produced.

As @Graham P has touched on, I, like Graham, know large quanities of Aladdins would have been released back to the public domain after the war through government auctions. I have seen what is in some of the auctions and it is seriously unbelievable what the Defence Dept had stockpiled.

As I mentioned previously, Australian companies including Aladdin were servicing allied forces based in Australia. Vast quantities of merchandise of all desriptions, including pressure lamps were needed.

Quite a few companies were born once Australia declared war because of the opportunities to manufacture articles that Australia normally relied on Europe and America for.

The Primus design stoves were now out of reach. Companies like Companion, Handi, Aladdin, Lanray, Lanora, Kayen and many others were either born or expanded by adding new ranges to their products. European designs were either used under licence or simply stolen by Australian companies. Stealing from the enemy wouldn't have been considered much of an offence during the war, though the companies of enemy countries and even friendly countries may have had a different viewpoint.

Of course the major companies, prior to the outbreak of the war, Coleman QuickLite Australia and Tilley suffered terribly. The Coleman parent company in the States and also Canada made millions of lamps and stoves between them, the subsidiary company in Australia wasn't so lucky. Their lamp supply simply couldn't reach our shores in any great quanities. In fact, Sands had to start advertising to buy second hand Colemans that they could then refurbish and sell.

Tilley too would have produced massive numbers of lamps in the UK but their Australian branch hardly got a delivery. Then of course Tilley were banned from importing their product for a year or two after the war to protect the Australian manufacturing companies and give those companies time to adjust to life after the war with as minimul labour losses as possible.

The hardest hit in terms of trade with Australia would have been Sweden. Sweden exported an enormous amount of goods to Australia and through no fault of their own and despite being a neutral in the war, they could no longer supply Australia.

It's hardly worth mentioning that the countries we were at war with could not export their goods to Australia once the war began. Many of those countries supplied a huge amount of pressure related goods to Australia prior to the war.

Christer, oops, I just realised I was rambling and getting off topic. Sorry about that. I couldn't bring myself to delete the boring stuff and I won't be offended if you do.

 

Well that generator was in use on the paraffin lamps too.
I don't really know the story behind the first Radius lanterns, and the petrol version. Perhaps it's just a sales trick to claim they were good for both fuels?
All I know is that the first ones were said to be able to run on petrol and paraffin. Nils might know the actual case about these.
Was it e.g. only the 120 (sort of the predescessor to the 119) that was claimed to use petrol, or did they say so even later, say 1931, for the 119? I don't think so.
I know that the straight vapouriser actually do work with paraffin since the more common stove tank based versions from Radius have it. I have a couple myself, and they run fine.
But the adding of a loop does of course make things more effective.

Here's the front of a little pamphlet Bo Ryman has posted in the reference section where it says: "Radius incandescent apparatus for paraffin and petrol"
It's from the first year of their lantern making so it pictures a 120. And it really doesn't say anything about how it all went after a while.
Inside the little paperwork they also show the stove tank based versions, and as far as I know, they all were on paraffin only.

 

@Matty & @Graham P

I’m pondering the label “Aladdin 1AX” as seen on @Graham P’s post above, and in Colin’s post here (where he also ponders the “1AX”):

Aladdin 1AX 1950's

Both Colin and @Graham P consider their (very similar) 1AXs to be 1950s.

It is logical that the 1AX label is after the 1A label.

Could it be that the 1AX were painted surplus lanterns being sold off after the introduction of the chromed tanks?

Cheers

Tony

 

@Tony Press @Graham P @Carlsson

Christer and Graham have opened a new can of worms.

In relation to the 1AX and the question of why it was called as such rather than the 1A. Tony, it is only my opinion but I'm not sure Aladdin would take the trouble to create a new model because one had mica or glass shade. It seems to me that printing different boxes to depict mica or glass shades would be a cost unwarranted. Personally I think one being a petrol lamp and the other being a kerosene lamp makes more sense for such a Model to be petrol and the other kerosene.

The possibility is, Aladdin didn't intend to sell the public petrol lanterns but as you and Graham and myself have mentioned, surplus, because the war ended, is the likely catalyst for the need to sell petrol Aladdins to the public.

The fact I found the parts list with 4 generators listed, the 1AX that Graham shows has an instruction manual with vapouriser or generator to me lends strong evidence that Aladdin did do petrol lanterns.

I have found an ad for the 1AX. It is from 1948. It does not state either kerosene or petrol was to be used.

I think it should be remembered, it may not have been complete lamps that were surplus. I think it is more likely they had 10's of thousand spare generators with no way to sell them. They would have then simply created a limited edition 1AX and used up the generators they had in surplus, generators intended for the military that were now no longer needed by the military. It may well have taken a couple of years after the war had ended to finalise their surplus generator numbers as by that time I suspect the defence force had stopped ordering replacement genertors

1948




This topic has been incredible. When this topic started the earliest suitcase stove ads I'd ever found were from 1949. I did think the suitcase stove was manufactured during the war. I thought that perhaps once the war ended Aladdin put the stove in hiatus for a few years before deciding to manufacture the stove for the public in the late 40's.

I have just found a mind boggling ad from 1939. It looks to me that Aladdin streamlined the stove they first sold to the public for miltary use. They changed positions of the tanks to make it more compact.

The stove and how quickly Aladdin re-configurated it for military use also lends support to the fact that it would not have been all that difficult for Aladdin to create a petrol lantern for military use.

1939




I will do a new post in regards to petrol lanterns, both Aladdin and Radius.

 

@Matty

It would be good to fine an illustration of an Aladdin gasoline generator to answer the question:

Is the Aladdin gasoline generator just an Aladdin 1A vapouriser with a different jet to accomodate gasoline; or is it a straight generator like the early gasoline Radius 119 above?

Both Colin and @Graham P's Aladdin 1AXs have the Preston loop.

Tony

 

@Tony Press

Yep, those are the $64,000 questions.

Originally, I assumed it was the Preston loop with a different jet. Now I don't have a clue.

I suppose it is possible for the 1A to be petrol and the 1AX to be kerosene. I still think it is highly unlikely all the ads from Aladdin and retailers depicting the Model 12 after the war were wrong. It may be the Model 12 was the kerosene lamp and the 1AX was the petrol lamp. It may not have been that way - there is still much to discover.

Why would they be selling the Model 12 after the war finished I can sense some asking. Again, I *think* it may be due to surplus. Radius most likely fulfilled Aladdins contractual orders made prior to the war but had no way of getting them to Australia. Once the war ended, the stored lamps could then be delivered to Aladdin in one massive lot.

 

@Matty

On the subject of advertising with (very) out of date illustrations, there is a good conversation over at CCS whereby @shagratork demonstrated that some illustrations of stoves were decades out of date:

https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/french-retailer-optimus-flyer.37918/

Tony

 

@Tony Press

Firstly, I'm not sure which ads you are referring to. The 12A or Stove ad? The 1XA ad or all of them?

Yes, I all too well know that some advertisements were used incorrectly. I think all companies and retailers made mistakes in their newspaper ads and their catalogues.

No one can convince me that Aladdin and every retailer, in every state of Australia, made the mistake of using an outdated image for two years. Not just in Australia but very elaborate ads used in overseas markets. It's not like it is the same ad, there are many versions of ads and some very detailed that would have taken great expense to produce. Massive companies like Aladdin make mistakes, but they weren't run by idiots. Heads would have rolled, simple as that.

Just because I can't be convinced the ads are wrong doesn't mean they weren't wrong. I am aware of that. There may come a time, in the near future, that will conclusively prove one way or the other - right or wrong. I can't wait for that day, even if I am wrong.

Since yTou mentioned some ads could be a decade out, you reminded me of something. There is another product that falls into the same catagory. Products marketed by Quirks Victory. Seemingly AGM lamps and lanterns.

AGM ceased their production of Ready Light lamps and lanterns circa 1930. However, Quirks Victory continued to advertise thos products in Australia under their own banner - for 20 years after production ceased by AGM.

I have been told the ads are a mistake. How could they be advertised when AGM had ceased production? Well, again, I don't believe for one second that a successful company like Quirks advertised the wrong lamps and lanterns for 20 years. I mean, give me a break. If the wrong lamps were advertised, where are the correct unknown lamps?

If AGM had ceased production, how could Quirks market them? The answer is simple, they manufactured them here in Australia as I believe they manufactured many AGM based hollow wire lamps, bracket lamps, etc, from about 1918.

I did skim Trevors very good detective work in the topic you linked me to. I did see where he said the company wasn't a manufacturer. I assume that seems to eliminate the idea that the company produced them themselves. Many successful lamp companies lasted decades, half centuries and even a 100 years yet, weren't lamp manufacturers.

In Trevors topic, was the notion thought of, that despite the fact that the stoves hadn't been manufactured by the parent company for a decade, that it is concevieable that a company may have the ressurected the stoves for their own trade purposes?

Perhaps the licensing royalties would have been a lot less on stoves that had ceased production by the parent company? Perhaps no royalties had to be paid on ignored stoves from the parent company?

I'm not saying the above is fact, I'm saying there are many conveivable possibilities to be considered. In the end, perhaps the company just got it wrong and advertised the wrong stoves, as Trevor said, I'm certainly not ignoring that possibility.

Tony, if you or others are concerned the information I am providing is untrustworthy, either ads, articles or my written word, I'd be more than happy to remove myself from this topic.

 

@Matty

I've got no worries about your involvement in this subject... There's tons of stuff here to find out.

I'm flat chat, but will revert tomorrow.

In the meantime, my only point above, in referring to the discussion over at CCS, was that, for various reasons long lost in the past, old print block illustrations of redundant items quite often appear in ads years later "representing" a newer products.

Cheers

Tony

 

Grist for the mill: Snippets of information on Aladdin in Australia as it relates to this discussion.

1. I found this reference to an Aladdin 1AX from June 1948:




2. I've not found any reference (yet) in advertising to the public of any Australian Aladdin using gasoline ("petrol" in Australia). On the contrary, I have found plenty of Aladdin advertising that talks about the virtues of kerosene over gasoline.


3. Wartime Aladdin marketing:




4. The first Aladdin "Storm Lantern" illustrations (that I've found so far) that show the 1A (as opposed to the 12A) appear around 1948:




5. Advertisements for Aladdin Storm Lanterns using the old 12A illustrations were appearing in 1947:




6. NOTE: the 1948 price for the Aladdin Storm Lantern is the same as the 1947 price, 93/3 (93 shillings and 3 pence).


7. Advertisements in the 1940s after the war variously rated the Aladdin Storm Lantern as 300cp, 200cp and 200-300cp. I've got a good copy of a 1948 advertisement saying 200cp but can't load it until tomorrow.

Cheers

Tony

 

Interesting!! Gasoline Aladdins yet? Sounds totally off the wall but I have learned never to say never so maybe?
I don't think the use of Generator or Vaporiser is too significant. British and Australian troops would be used to Vaporiser and Americans to generator. But American kero lamps have generators so the term does not imply gasoline. What is interesting is listing 4 different generators for essentially the same lantern. Different fuels is perhaps the most likely reason but 4??? Kero and gasoline perhaps but the other two? Who knows?

If they supplied the lanterns with different generators then they existed and presumably still do. So maybe you guys need to look at your generators and see if you can find any differences. Paper needs a careful look as well. Petrol was a term used for paraffin in the 1920s in the UK and presumably also in Aus so the word alone is not really a help. Suggestions that motor fuel could be used would be more significant perhaps. ::Neil::

 

I cannot help asking are generator and vaporisor not the same thing , if its from Britain it's a vaporisor or if from America a Generator! As in Petrol - Gasolene

Is it a posibility that the Military /Government had some of the 12A 14A Aladdins as well as 1A,s There's different 3 vaporisers (I will believe in a petrol version when I see one)

I have looked at 13 Aladdins tonight and the vap's appear to be the same 4 variations of 1A-

(Neil posted while I was writing this)

 

@Tony Press @Graham P @Mackburner

Graham, I think this is the problem, with you and virtually all Australian collectors when faced with possibilities of things outside of what you already believe. There is simply no consideration for new information, in fact it gets totally ignored or explained away as newspapers being incorrect.

Once again, I am being fought tooth and nail against the POSSIBILITY that Aladdin manufactured petrol lanterns during the war years - most likely for US troops stationed in Australia and more familiar with gasoline lanterns rather than kerosene.

A quick re-cap of what I have shown for us to CONSIDER the possibility that Aladdin did manufacture petrol lanterns during the war years.

1) A parts list that lists 4 generators. There is only one Preston loop vapouriser known to be used in Aladdins?

2) A Tender accepted by the Dept of Shipping and Supply for Aladdin Industries Petrol Lanterns.

3) The 1AX (that you placed in the topic) lists Vapouriser OR Generator. No, I don't think the 1AX was manufactured during the war years but I think the generators used were.

4) @Carlsson has shown that Radius themselves did in fact offer a petrol lantern with a generator. I assume since you can see the generator in the photo, not the Preston loop, you believe that.

5) Now here is the kicker. This is an article from 1958 listing patents from 1943 That Aladdin Industries were offering for sale two Australian patents.



One is for a generator the other a petrol burner.

Graham, with the above, do you think there is any possibility that Aladdin manufactured petrol lamps during the war years? Tony? Nils? Neil? Christer?

Neil,

Finally someone that is willing to at least CONSIDER the possibility that Aladdin manufactured petrol lamps.

Well, Christer seems to think it isn't totally unbelievable.

 

@Matty

[I'll respond to you post immediately above in another post after this one]

You asked (somewhere, it could have been over at CCS) about sorting out the Aladdin lanterns in the Reference Gallery.

I think this illustration (that was used in the 1930s and shortly after WWII) is of a Radius-made Aladdin 12A:



Remembering it is a commercial artist's rendition of a lantern, it looks similar to @Nils Stephenson's Aladdin 12A here:




The Aladdin 14A is a different beast with a big, obvious, sliding handle:




Cheers

Tony

 

@Tony Press

Thanks for the reply. I'd like a favour from you. Would you please reproduce your post in this topic

Aladdin 12A and 14A Help

 

@Matty

I refer to your post above about the possibility or otherwise of a gasoline Aladdin being made in Australia.

1. I think there is a distinct likelihood that Aladdin Australia supplied their 1A lanterns in a gasoline format to the US military. How different is was to the kerosine Aladdin 1A, I have no idea, but it could just be a different jet in the standard Aladdin preston loop generator.

2. I haven't found any evidence that gasoline Aladdins were sold in the civilian market. As I said above, much advertising promotes the virtues of kerosene being safer than "petrol".

3. Of all the Aladdin 1A storm lanterns I've seen, none have had a generator that didn't have a Preston loop.

4. The Aladdin 1AX looks like a kerosene lantern to me.

On another note, I don't think you needed to get stuck into @Graham P like that. He's a genuine collector of long standing, with a great deal of knowledge, and he's an all round nice person. He's entitled to his opinion.

I think everyone who has been involved in these recent discussions about Aladdin in Australia has learned a lot. It would be a pity to close down discussion when were are all on a roll.

Cheers

Tony

 

Firstly, before I go any further in these discussions, I'll respond to this and would like @Carlsson as a moderator, to consider your point of view of what I said and my point of view. If Christer considers I damaged Graham's reputation as a collector or as an all round good person, I'm not excatly sure where we go from there as that wasn't my intention.

I don't believe I got stuck into Graham or the 'other' Australian collectors I mentioned. I was simply offering my opinion based on many years of reading and participating in this forum.

My opinion wasn't meant to be offensive to Graham or anyone else. It was a statement I felt is true.

Tony, I think it is delightful that you come to a fellow collectors defense like you have done despite what I believe is a gross over reaction.

Oh, how I've dreamed of someone coming to my defense and stating I'm entitled to my opinion. If anyone has had some terrible things said about them on this forum, you have no further to look than I. I mean gutter stuff.

 

@Matty, @Nils Stephenson @Mackburner, @Graham P & @Carlsson



I've gone over all my Aladdin 1As.

1. All have the same looking "Preston loop" vapouriser and nipple... except,

2. Two of the 'oldest' have steel vapourisers (with brass nipples).

3. I'll stick my neck out and say:

I think this is the earliest form of the Aladdin 1A, because of the filler cap, the pump locking cap, and the pricker control wheel (the one I'm posting is the one I bought yesterday and it has a steel tank , so I think it was war-issue and the first ones might have had brass tanks).

Ignore the after-market silver-frost on the upper parts of the lantern:










Note the green "crinkle" paint.



Steel tank (the other two I have that look the same have brass tanks).



Steel vapouriser (two out of three that look like this lantern have steel vapourisers; one has the 'normal' brass vapouriser)

Note also the clip for the spirit cup.


Cheers

Tony

 

Of course I am happy to consider any suggestions that the current wisdom may not be correct. From what I read here I think it may well be possible some Aladdins were made to use gasoline. I suspect that may have been due to a request from the US military. However so far we seem to be attempting to interpret adverts and second guess what patents were applied for. We know Aladdin in US made gasoline lamps for the USQM. They are after all the guys who invented the generator/burner for Milspec lanterns. In common with most manufacturers they copied patents in many countries so an Aus Patent may have nothing to do with product made in Aus. I am intrigued with these four different generators. It is perhaps reasonable to assume at least one was for Gasoline which kinda reinforces the suggestion. What I now want to see is examples of all 4 generators. They were listed so must have been made and used so where are they and what do they look like? ::Neil::

 

Kerosene that we use today is refined from crude oil along with petroleum and other products

Petroleum - Wikipedia -- Kerosene - Wikipedia

And in this Kerosene lamp - Wikipedia

(Note description of mantle lamp half way down on right hand side)

So the term Gasoline could be legal speak for kerosine

The term ''Generator '' is not used exclusively for Gas/petroleum lamps it is used also for kerosine also

Old Coleman Parts
Generator 237 Kerosene SKU: 237-2991

New Generator for Model 237, 237


Generator Kerosene SKU: 249-2991

New Generator for Model 249 Lantern. New generator includes new gas tip, spring, and tip cleaning wire.

Just checked my earliest I think Aus 1a,s both wrinkle finish
[1 with steel tank domed locking pump cap has brass vaporiser/generator(replacement) ?]
[1 with brass tank flat pump cap has steel vaporiser/generator very flaking heat deteriation.]

 

Regarding my comments above re Aladdin 12A and 14A, see this post by @Anthony in the Reference Gallery.

https://classicpressurelamps.com/threads/aladdin-12a.8814/

Cheers

Tony

 

I've gone through Allin Hodson's seminal work on Aladdin in Australia, "Aladdin Kerosene Lamps in Australia" (1999: ISBN 0 646 37755 8).

Allin's work is principally on wick lamps, but he does include an importnat section of pressure lamps (pages178 to197).

A few of his conclusions are now shown to be inaccurate, in the light of wisdom gathered since the publication of his book (such as he thought, on the basis of an undated letter from "J Ringe", that the earliest Australian Aladdin could have been a Primus (page 179)). Nonetheless the book has a a wealth of information. In the light of the current topic, I thought it worthwhile reproducing some of his relevant information here.

1. The earliest advertisement he found for an Aladdin Industries Ltd (Australia) pressure lantern was from 6 March 1933 in Hardware and Machinery. The illustration from that advertisement is here:




2. He states in relation to the above lantern “the lamps descibed were fully imported” (p 278).

3. He states “importation was bought to a close as a result of the war. Ringe records the last of these imports as the ‘model nos 12A and 14A’” (p 179).

3. He states “wartime shipping problems and the need to provide lighting equipment for the armed forces resulted in local production of the ‘Storm-proof’ lantern at Aladdin’s Waterloo premises in Sydney [Australia]” (p 183).

4. He describes the early Australian wartime Aladdin 1A as “...painted in Army Green” (p183) and with the winged filler cap and domed pump cap that pump could lock to (p183). His lantern photos are very similar to mine above.

5. He states the Aladdin 1A was “...supplied to the military, being referred to a Emergency Lighting Equipment. They were also supplied (along with the Aladdin five and seven burner stoves) to the American forces serving in the Pacific theatre of war” (p183).

There’s a fair bit of interesting material in Allin’s book.

Cheers

Tony

 

I've been on holidays the last two weeks and can see that a lot has been discussed in the meantime. There is some great info coming to light. I look forward to learning more.

Matty, way back you asked what lamps I thought were in the add from the Waterloo factory. My best guess would be the 1A. In the photo the tops are shiny so presumably nickel plated but the tanks are not so they must be painted. That's all I can base my guess on.

I like the thoughts about the 1AX as well. I had also wondered about that and I like Tony's suggestion that it could be ex military stock being sold off.

The stove pictured in the 1939 add is an Aladdin badged Radius 12 stove. There were a few different Radius items sold under the Aladdin name in the 30s.

I think I'm going to have to re-read this thread a few times to be able to soak in all the information.

 

@Nils Stephenson

The Aladdin 1AX boxes were well printed indicating the boxes were made post-WWII.

Australian companies were also supplying the Pacific nations for decades after the War (Austramax still does). This is speculation (again): Could it be that the “X” was for export?

Cheers

Tony

 

That's not bad speculation. Tilley used the EX numbering for export only models, so it fits the theme. Could be why we don't see many in Aus.