Hello all I am not very lucky with the box but lamp is pretty This is a Petromax 827 /200 CP. I have readed it has been produced between 1935 and 1939. There is a 8 stamped on the fount, could it be for 1938 ?
Hi Michel what a beautifull lantern and in such excerlent condition, i realy do like these chrome/nickel plaited lanterns with there top that has been enameled it realy does set it off,and i all so like the look of the preheater wheel it looks much better than the more modern lever type, the quality of the older german made Prtromax's were certainly made superbly better than those made of today
These were introduced in 1937 and made up to about 1941 but I suspect that after 1939 most were military and that makes it 1937 to 1939. You don't often see them in such nice condition, that is one very nice find. ::Neil::
hi all and thanks for the replies nothing on the bottom, i had seen Piotr's idea and I had a look only this 8 near the preheater according to Neil, they were introduced in 1937, therefore I make the hypothesis it is for 1938. ??
They could be a tad earlier because the patent for that pre heater torch dates from 10 September 1935 but I don't think this type was catalogued until 1937. That is certainly when they were offered for sale in the UK as Aladdin Petromax. ::Neil::
Hi Michel Great great.....Petromax 827(Red hood) How old this lamp? With 821 from me(not pressure gauge and not number) I want to challenge your 827 from pressure gauge. Probability newer or older not gauge type? Thanks for nice lamp.
Your 821 is later for sure. It cannot be earlier with that plastic control wheel and with an E in the Logo it is before 1952. So almost certainly post WW2 and probably about 1950. ::Neil::
Thanks Neil My 821(E in G logo). About ages of old lamps,I often found in old pressure lamps(not pressure gauge).Such as Petromax 833,Aida No.250 My personal opinion....I think it look very old. *For 827 I want to known Inner hood stamp>>>Original Petromax ? Best Regards,Thanks.
Here are the two logos with the dates of registration. The logo/trade mark of the 2 seahorses together with the E&G monogram actually dates from 1890, but, until 1906/1907 always together with a written trade mark like Gluckbrenner, Triumphlampe or Matadorbrenner written above it. The free double seahorse logo with E&G monogram dates from 1906/1907. The later 1943 logo registration refers to the same 1907 logo. So this very same logo was confirmed to Graetz AG, Berlin in 1943 and to Graetz AG, Hamburg in 1952. It changed into the one with the single G monogram in 1953 and was confirmed in 1973 to Graetz VG mbH, Pforzheim and again in 1978 to the same company. So the E was only dropped in 1953 after the company had been reorganised with ownership o fthe brand names in Hamburg and manufacture in Altena. ::Neil::
ehum, we will I guess for ever have a discussion here: In the book "Signal auf Grün, the history of the VEB for Railway Signaling (later Siemens) on page 27 it says: "Obwohl der frühere Teilhaber Emil Ehrich bereits im Jahre 1887 verstorben wahr, hatte Graetz den Namen Ehrich&Graetz AG bis 1942 beibehalten. Erst am 4. Juni 1942 wurde der Betrieb in "Graetz AG zu Berlin" umbenannt. Die Vorstandsmitgleider waren Erich Graetz, Fritz Graetz und Rudolf Vogt. " So besides the fact that the factory in Treptow Berlin since start of the war more and more changed to war production and lamp production came to a hold (?) there was no reason to make new articles with the E&G logo. After the war, the family fled to the western side of Berlin and they had to set up the company from scratch and also re-claim there rights on the logo, monogram and names like petromax. I guess it is pretty save to say that after ww2 there where no lamps marked with E&G any more. Pretty because there is evidence that especially for the export there was no barrier to mark lanterns the way the (western)buyer wanted it. This was done by MEWA wo branded HASAG on lanterns.
OK, Wim - from the sublime to the ridiculous! This is the manky old P'max we were discussing the other day:- On the collar it's marked 829/500cp SUPER Petromax Rapid. It has just the 'G' in the logo and is stamped '2793' under the tank. On the globe is the logo with the 'E' in the 'G', so I'm guessing that's earlier. Thoughts, anybody, regarding dates etc...
As far as I know from talking with Anton the Altena factory started production in about 1950 or 1951 and at that time the logo was still registered with the E. The new logo without the E is from 1953 by which time Altena was in full production so I think it is quite possible that some post WW2 product was made with the EG logo in 1951 and up to November 1953 when the new logo was registered. That control wheel may be correct and original. Most lamps from the period have a black star shaped control but a few have turned up with this later type. I don't know when that round control was introduced but I suspect it was 1939. I have seen one Aladdin Petromax with the red lozenge pre heater control and this round black plastic main valve. As Aladdin Petromax cannot date to after 1939 and given how rare it is to see this wheel on Aladdins I conclude the change was in the last year they were sold here. Production probably continued into 1940 and these later examples will have been fitted with this newer wheel. ::Neil::
I am very interested in this discussion, thank you all, although I'm not sure I understand everything That said, I am surprised because I always thought the logo E signed an old lamp. 1953 is not that old. the control wheel seems correct, in any case, I've seen this kind of wheel on other lamps of this type on the Web
Same here, Michel! I think this might have been one of the lanterns I had at Newark 2006 which a certain, well-known Dutch collector was helping me light. Being au fait with P'max lanterns he was pumping very, very enthusiastically - he was quite red-faced! - whilst the rapid pre-heater was doing it's work and knocked the bottom out of the pump-tube. On the other hand, if that had been the lantern in question, it would have had the remains of an unlit mantle hanging from the ceramic nozzle... I suppose I'll have to find a pump-rod and see if it pressures up...
Yes 1953 was a surprise to us as well but Anton Kaim has researched Aida and Petromax company history and it was during that research he found the registrations for the company names and logos. There is no doubt that the EG logo was the only legal official company logo from 1907 to November 1953. It is interesting to note that at the time the ownership of the brand name and logo was still with part of the Graetz family in Eastern Gemany in 1953 but production was in the West in a factory owned by two other members of the family. ::Neil::
hello all What could help me to understand better, friends ? Is that you make an effort to write using short phrases, you do pay attention to punctuation and spelling, not using slang, because electronic translators are not very smart (they translate word for word and it is sometimes incomprehensible) sorry if my English is sometimes approximate when I post....and to be demanding.
Michel is right lets keep the responses clear. The German text reads like: Although the former associate Emil Ehrich died in 1887, Graetz had retained the name "Ehrich & Graetz AG" until 1942. On the 4 June 1942, the company was renamed "Graetz AG in Berlin." The board members were Erich Graetz Graetz and Rudolf Fritz Vogt. A francais : Bien que l'ex-associé Emil Ehrich en 1887 est décédé vrai, Graetz avait conservé le nom de Ehrich & Graetz AG jusqu'en 1942. Seul le 4 Juin 1942, l'usine rebaptisée «Graetz AG à Berlin." Le Conseil membre étaient Erich Graetz Graetz et Rudolf Fritz Vogt. I know the results of the study of Anton Kaim but we forget easy one (unwritten) point : that is the historical background. If you own a company and all of it's registrations in Germany during ww2. Your country looses the war and your factory city is divided. Then it may be obvious that you have to re register, if possible at all, all your claims again in the free world. That is what exactly happened in the 1950 ties. The Berlin factory was after the war run by the former factory workers. They managed to get the already looted machines back from the Russian army. And when they write in their remembrance book that the company name change in 1942, why doubt that ? Graetz in Altena didn't brand lantern with E&G. It is doubtful if lanterns with E&G where even made during ww2. Simply because they had to make fuses for the war office. As for the globes: globes are never a good dating product. It is known that new petromax lanterns where sold until recently with E&G marked globes.
This is a researchers nightmare. We have conflicting evidence here and after 60 years or so the truth is difficult to determine. Assessing evidence is sometimes the most important thing I do and this one is not easy at all. However what we are arguing about here is not who owned the company or what they made and where they made it but what was marked on the lamps and that is perhaps not so difficult if we apply Occam’s razor and make a conclusion base on the balance of probability. We have evidence from company employees that the company name was changed in 1942 from Erich & Graetz AG to Graetz AG (Berlin). There is no reason to doubt that but that did not involve a change in the Logo. In fact that evidence can be ignored because it is confirmed from the official records because the EG logo was re registered in the new company name in May 1943 and the official record is better and more reliable evidence than the memories of employees. So yes there was a name change BUT there was not a corresponding change in the Logo. That same EG Logo was registered again in January 1952 to Graetz AG (Hamburg). In fact I suspect here that this marked a change of ownership or perhaps just a change of address of the owners and reflects the fact that the company was setting up a new factory and were getting the registrations altered to allow product to be made and marked with legally registered names and logos. So regardless of who was making product or where it was being made the Legally registered logo in 1952 was still the original EG type. There is some doubt in my mind as to when exactly Altena started production but it seems very likely it was some time in 1951 or perhaps 1952. What I am sure of is that IF Petromax were manufactured in Altena before November 1953 it had to be legally marked with the EG logo because that was the registered mark. They could not have used the G logo until it was registered and became the legally recognised mark for Petromax. So whilst I do have small doubts the evidence leads me to conclude that any product made before November 1953 had to be marked with the EG logo. That applies to product made in both Berlin and Altena because regardless of who owned the company of where product was made the legal mark was the EG Logo until November 1953. Let us not forget that these company directors would not have flouted the law and would surely never have used a logo that was not registered to the company. There is another thought here though. Going back to the workers evidence that they started production after the war in Berlin with tooling recovered from the Russians. That implies that there is Berlin made product manufactured between 1945 and 1950 If that is true, and it seems likely, then that product must have been marked with the EG logo. So the conclusion is that there were lamps made between 1945 and 1953 which may have been either Berlin or Altena product and all would have been marked EG. ::Neil::
Hi and Kind Regards to all in the Forum. I also have a 827 with box. The Production Date 9/41 is stamped on my Box on the front side and scratched in the Tank . Stefan
They are nice looking lamps... I like the chrome lamps, but my wife isn't so keen. How easy are they to get parts for should I ever come across one on my travels..?
Hi there, just saw your post about the Ehrich & Graetz Logo. Could you please tell me where you found the Logo registration and information. Would be great. Thank you and best regards from Germany Tony
Thanks Wim! Very intersting patents to see. Maybe I`m doing something wrong but I can`t find an specific "logo" or "trademark" research. Haven`t found the Ehrich & Graetz logo yet. Can you help me out? Best regards Tony
It should be possible to seach on trademarks. But you have to make your choice very early on the home page as far as I remember.
