Petromax hand scratchings - are they actually made at the factory or not?

Yup I know them and I agree that they look like dragons but they are seahorses.
Especially before the war the variations where huge.
And maybe dragons like creatures sold better in Asia. Who knows.

Go to Berlin and look through the VEB Signalwerke archive.

Find an archive which has records of how Berlin looked like in 1945.
We don't know what the Russians found, we don't know what they took with them, we don't know what the Graetz family took with them.
We only know that after the war they, the Graetz family, didn't had a lot.

 

Never realized dragons and sea horses could be so much fun!
Wonder what Herr Graetz would have made of all this?

 

@WimVe ,The Russians took many archives with them to Moscow after they "liberated" Berlin, and now anybody who wants, can BUY their own archives back! These archives had been stolen by the German administration in all occupied countries to be studied after they 'won' the war...

Best regards,

Wim

 

Dragons are highly desirable, especially in the Far Eastern side of Asia. As opposed to Europe or most of the Western World, they are generally regarded as benign rather than 'evil'.
But then, I've never seen one being stamped or embossed on any Asian-made pressure lanterns.

 

@george
Perhaps you can tell us more about he dragons you have seen?

 

Yes, you have convinced me.
They are cute seahorses, just a bit stylized with arms, legs, wings, claws and teeth!
And the scratchings on the underside of the tanks of pre-war lamps came from a collector who had thousands of lamps and then gradually sold them all over the world!

 

I will be glad to tell you about the dragons I've seen just as soon as the guy here in the white coat unties my hands!

 

@george These dragons that you been seeing, has that got anything to do with medication? I refer to the Jack Daniels style of medication. I reckon I’ve seen a few myself ....... they seem to be more prolific as the level in the bottle goes down. Just an observation........

 

Pete, good ole Jack... I use to down one bottle a week...No kidding, then I realized despite that my back still gave me a fit. Figured my liver was the next thing to go. Gave up the sauce about two years ago and never looked back; however, I thought Jack Daniels was/still is one hellva drink!

 

That is indeed the problem: there is no evidence of these thousands of lanterns !
Count them in this topic and then also try to determine if they are bought from ebay germany or bought local with the background of being exported long time ago.

All my lanterns come from ebay or other collectors.

@Wim, I know and the Russian German military archives are available on line now.
But there are many more local archives in Germany which can hold information. Just start in Altena, Hamburg, Bregenz.
Try to find something about Hipolito, Heinze, etc.

But I guess that all the evidence of a burned down and bombed Berlin didn't effect the (war)factory of E&G at all. They simply produced Petromax lanterns still by the thousands.
While other companies didn't had metall at all. Kerosene was available in hugh quantities. I think that this history was a fact not a myth.

I agree that there are numbers scrathed on lanterns but with the amounts at the Deutsche Bahn, Deutsche Post, big contractors, etc. it is very well possible that these "dates" are placed by another user.

 

I'd probably search around in my free time if I live anywhere in Germany, Austria, Poland or any other neighbouring countries in those regions.
Well, the proof might not surface but chances of further evidence could.
Let's take a simpler path instead:
If all the members here gather all their pre-WWII Petromax lanterns and inspect their bottoms, what are the odds of finding one without scratched numbers?

 

I think you won't find any without date scratchings. I have a Px 900 Little Baby which is in the family since purchase.
It was used until the 60s and then put away. I digged it out some years ago, with all original parts, and what can be seen
on the bottom? Yes, two numbers 3 and 6 hand scratched on a once new bottom. So made in March 1936 and then
bought and used here in our house. And the date is identical to all the others shown here or in the german forums.
So was it by chance?

Regards
Matthias

 

Myn, I think the odds are that one pre-war, or for that matter early post-war lanterns may not have scratch dates on the bottom simply because we are human and we can miss a lantern here or there. Maybe that's why they went to machine stampings.

 

If most pre-wars have these scratchings, it'll be highly unlikely that they are done outside the factories.
Well, at least that's what I think would be rational.

 

I tend to agree with you. The evidence is mounting in favor of the scratches being done at the factory, not by the owner. Just too many examples!

 

And with the systematic way they're done differently corresponding to the decades as mentioned by @Reinhard earlier matches with 'period-correct' Petromax models.
I don't this is co-incidental.
Manually scratching the founts of hundreds of thousand units wouldn't be too unbelievable during the time when The Third Reich was still in power.

 

Strange that nobody dares to count the lanterns that are scratched against those who ain't.
I don't read the evidence of thousands that are marked. I read and get, I guess, equal information of lanterns that are and those that ain't.

I haven't seen a call for it on the German petromax forum.
I would like to see members here that would check and tell what they find. Maybe it is more "sexy" to tell that you have a scratched lantern then not.

Every lantern manufacturer who marked their product during fabrication used a date stamp or date code. So why would the biggest of them all use a department to do this ? You can't do this by a few persons when you make lanterns by the minute.

Why would it be done in the factory and not by the collector(s) who once owned the lantern ? Or was it common practice under whole sellers to mark what they had sold.

 

From my collection, I found that all my pre-war Petromaxes were scratched. Don't think I have any from the 40s. Those which I believe from the 50s(judging from their features and info available from the patents) are blank without numbers. And those from the 60s or maybe 70s have stamped numbers.
So far, all those I'm aware of having the number '1' scratched indicate they were done in a way that most Germans would write them (continental). The wholesalers or importers in Asia don't do that. The prominent ones would make an additional nameplate with the name of the company in it. Others would just stamp additional characters as their markings on the fount.
I'm not sure if Racek did any scratchings for those marketed in India during the 30s. My guess, unlikely, since they could have theirs well-stamped.
So, the biggest of them all, Graetz, sure have something unique here.

Here's another thought:-
Has anyone seen this amount of scratched numbers on other brands/makes?

 

I think that none of my lamps were scratched with any numbers by the previous owners. The lamps do not get much older by scratched numbers. Only scratching a lamp from the 1950s does not become a lamp from the 1930s.
I continue to think that these numbers were applied in the factory.
On the tank of my Focus hanging lamp there is a similar scratch on the tank.

 

I’m open-minded about the scratchings. I originally asked the question because I was trying to decipher what had been scratched on the bottom of my Petromaxes.

Both my Petromaxes would have been imported into Australia around the time they were made. I know this because I know where they come from before they fell into my hands. The source that I got them off did not put the marks on them.

I hope that this conversation can continue without rancour.

There appears to be at least a set of Petromaxes that have scratchings that are consistent with a dating sequence that matches the time of manufacture. Are there any scratchings that contradict the manufacture period?

Then there is the matter of those that are not scratched with any “code”.

So it would be good to get as many examples of scratched and non-scratched Petromaxes as possible (noting that the scratchings on one of my lanterns was revealed only after a good clean.

Cheers

Tony

 

@george
Thanks for your lines. You gave me streght and courage again. I already wanted to give up twice. The first time Nils Stephenson helped me identify the date code of my own Petromax 826 (1928) and now you with your lines.
@Mackburner
My two oldest Petromax postwar lamps have the date codes 8/0 and 10/0.They already have the modern tanks and the new hand wheels from Altena. But on the tanks is still E&G. That goes in my collection until mid-1953. My personal opinion, after reading the scratched numbers, is that production in Altena must have begun as early as 1950.
@MYN
Lamp production in Berlin/Treptow, Soviet occupation zone.
What do you think MYN? What did the lamps from Treptow look like?
I think and that is my personal opinion :
Either they looked like the last produced lamps from E&G, or they are the ominous 1821 and 1826 whose identity and place of manufacture is still unclear.Or both possibilities together. Certainly they did not look like the "new" lamps from Altena. And, that,too,is my personal opinion, these Treptow lamps probably had no scratched numbers on the underside of the tank. This was not common among the pressure lamps manufactured in the soviet - occupied zone.

@WimVe
You have lost the ability to learn.
And you have left the path of good manners. I want you to apologize to me formally. No ifs and buts.

Regards Reinhard

 

Personally I am convinced that these scratchings are factory made and I think that most of us has that thought but everyone has their right of opinion.

One thing we must concider, in my opinion, is the very common thing with employees ”liberating” things from their work.

Petromax can not have been the only company in history that this did not happened in.

There must have been many lanterns over the years that got home with employees in their bags after work.

These lanterns or parts of lanterns was most probably from the production line before final approval and had in that case no scratchings.

Michael

 

I'm lost.... I thought Treptow was where the Petromax plant was located before the war... All Petromax lanterns, I thought were made there until the end of the war. Have I missed something????

 

If lantern production really continued in the former E&G Treptow plant after 1945, most if not all the old equipment would have been in Soviet hands. So they could continue producing as before, only without the Graetzs or that many workers around. I'll say limited in numbers, in all aspects. For 2-3 years before giving up totally on lanterns.
My guess is: they'd look mostly like the pre-war units.
With the greatly diminished number of workers, they might even skip the scratchings entirely.
No idea if the E&G logo or even 'Petromax' would continued to be stamped on the products made in post 1945 Treptow factory. But I think not since that would have been belonged to Graetz KG or AG.

 

On second thoughts about my last phrase above, the E&G logo and Petromax trade mark might still had been used in post 1945 Treptow. Yeah, not only did the Soviets seized the factory and equipment but all the patent rights and trademarks as well. Graetz AG already fell into their hands earlier.

 

@george
The factory moved in 1899,within Berlin from Kreuzberg to Treptow. Already in 1945 there was a resumption of production by a very small group of workers.
@MYN
Thank you for your assessment.
In 1942 the Ehrich&Graetz AG was transformed into Graetz AG.
Nevertheless, E&G was in the logos again for more than 3 years with the new lamps from Altena (WEST-GERMANY)
That's remarkable!

Regards Reinhard

 

It must had been a seriously tough task for both Erich and Fritz Graetz towards the end of the 40s setting up the new Graetz in Altena.
With all their lantern-making equipment gone, I wonder if they had any kind of help from Jakob Hirschorn of Aida during these years.

 

In Altena, the main products were radios, tvs and other electronics. I'm rather surprised they they could revive the lamps and lanterns stuff within a short period time. And with the Aida made there as well. So I'm guessing that there's someone from Aida running the show on lanterns production in Altena rather than the Graetzs themselves.

 

@MYN
The Graetz Brothers had a big name. That's why they quickly became financiers. AIDA belonged to Graetz AG since 1942.
Only the two brothers Graetz and 3 employees ventured in 1947 in a barrack the new beginning.

 

@MYN
I have no proof that AIDA was acquired in 1942.That's just my assessment. I would not have written that better, even if it was correct.