Petromax hand scratchings - are they actually made at the factory or not?

Read this article : AIDA a brand between companies made by Anton kaim.

Good part of the E&G History.

 

Yes. Only proofs and much documents are missing. Otherwise, we wouldn't need to assess much. Nevertheless, that does make this even more interesting than it would have been if hard proofs are well documented.
So the quest goes on. The more the evidence, the better.

 

Hirschorn, I believe was out of the picture long before the war. They continued to use the "E" within the "G", I think until about sometime around 1953. Why, I really don't know. Perhaps for economy reasons? Maybe it was cheaper to let the stampings and dies as they were until they were better established financially and could make new dies, etc. The glass globe always amazed me... that logo "E" within the "G" continued to be on the glass globes long after they removed it from the lanterns.
I'm no expert on this, so please correct me.

 

I think there are some aspects to concider.

How it was for Greatz I do not know but most manufacturers buy their equipment and tools from subcontractors.

Usually these subcontractors have the customers specifications on file and there are not uncommon to have spare tools handy for reference and in case of an emergency for the customers.

These subcontractors could easily have been located around Germany and now have been in the Western Zone.

That should mean that Greatz could have got a spare stamping tool with the E and G.

It can not have been of any importance for Greatz to correct this at the time.

It must have been more of an interest for them to get the factory up and running and to get a quick sale start to have money comming in to the company.

This is only my thoughts and nothing else.
Take it for what it is.

Michael

 

The two logos with and without the E were and are legally registered trade marks/logos. It would have been a legal requirement to have it correct so we can be sure the logo without the E begins on the registered date which was 13th November 1953. The EG logo was registered to Graetz AG Hamburg on the 15th January 1952 and I believe that is from that date that this logo was used for production in the Altena factory. Until that date the western company did not have the legal right to use it. So we can be sure that the EG logo could have been used for Altena product from January 1952 for a year and a half before the new logo was registered. ::Neil::

 

Makes sense to me as far as the tanks are concerned, but what about the globes? They continued long after the tanks were changed.

 

The glass globes were made by Schott, not Graetz. So, I don't know if they need to meet those legal requirements as those for Graetz.

 

One thought, if the Western(Altena) company could only legally use the E&G logo from 1952 and G logo from 1953 onwards, what would they use, should there be any lanterns they made in 1949, 1950 and 1951?

 

correct, but I would think Graetz would have wanted the letter change made to the glass as well as the lanterns tanks.

 

In the above linked article about E&G history (#151) you read about fall 1949 as restart date in Altena.
This goes along with the tanks shown here, for example mine from 1951 with repair marked in 1952.
Reinhard has tanks marked 1950. So in my opinion, without regarding any legal problems, they made their
tanks in Altena using E&G up to 1953. And who cared as the logo belonged to the Graetz family?

Regards
Matthias

 

My thoughts too.
We have a Germany in ruins after a devastating war.

A Germany devideded into four zones, Russian zone, US zone, British zone and the French zone.

The Greatz family have got their company stolen by the Russians and they would still be the owner of the trade mark in their own minds, maybe also legaly I guess.

Whoever in the US zone should be interested in any claims from the Russians about a ”wrongly” use of a trade mark?

If the Greatz family really had lost it, which I doubt they had.

In 1949 when Germany started to work again they needed to file their trade mark in the new Republic of Germany (BRD).

How long time that took we can only guess.

Michael

 

All really interesting stuff.... I had a number of misconceptions about some of this history, this has answered a lot of questions and created others. Anyway, this is why this is such a great forum!

 

Another thought: from 1961 to maybe the 70s, we get Petromax with stamped codes, perhaps dates.
From then onwards, has anyone found any products with the said hand scratchings?
I've not found any so far.

 

None from my collection. They moved to the Hippolito plant sometime in the 1970s, and perhaps no longer seen a need to stamp/scratch dates on the bottoms. I believe when the final move was made to China a five digit code started appearing on the bottoms. I don't think this is a date, though. More like something to do with manufacturing in general??? Not sure at all about that.

 

I did not state too clearly, in my previous post. What I meant to ask was:-

has anyone seen a Petromax that was made, starting from the year 1961 onwards, with both stamped and scratched numbers on them?

I've not seen any,. Just curious if anyone else had. If not, how come?

 

Why would you stamp and scratch the date on the bottom? Stamping would be sufficient, I would think...

 

That's the simple logic.
The implications I was going point out:

1. The hand scratchings on the Petromax were not done by someone outside the factories, just like stamped numbers.
2. Following the above, the earlier scratched numbers would be for the same purpose as the later stamped ones on the Petromax or vice versa. Therefore, if the latter indicates the date, the same would be for the former.
3. If there are no documents or records on both the scratched and stamped numbers, that wouldn't mean they should be viewed in any way as a non-Petromax practice.

 

In other words if the dates were stamped then you would not expect to find scratched dates, thus pointing to a good probability that the scratched datings were done at factory! Am I correct?

 

Well I am afraid there is only one solution: someone has to be brave enough to go to Berlin, Elsenstrasse and find a way to enter the cellar...

 

Or quite the opposite: if they wanted date codes they used stamps like in the sixties.

 

Wim:
What I was getting at is with date stamps on the bottom then you would not need scratched dates, thus since we have not been able to find any lanterns yet with both scratched dates and stamped ones then there is a fairly good chance the scratched dates were made at the factory.
Once stamped dating started maybe the workers were told to stop scratching the dates on the lantern bottoms. Am I clear or am I just muddying up the waters?

 

No you are not I get you point.
My reaction was more from a manufacturers point : if needed, we stamp dates. No scratching.

But I am also looking at another side as you know. There is a part of history we seem to have missed.

 

Wim:
Quite agree with you. More in-depth research is needed!

 

Wim: Break in operation, huh? Sticky fingers, huh? I'm not your man...way too clumsy.

 

The scratches were made ath the factory or at least at a distribution center, otherwise how do you explain that you find them all around the world?

Since you find lanterns with and without scracthes from the same period, I'd bet for a quality control date but there are too many to be just QC samples ...

 

Exactly. That's a point. Unless we could find a fair quantity of ones with both scratched and stamped numbers, which would have meant that the scratchings was an outside job done by some collectors, distributors, etc.

 

yup:
First I want to contact some other collectors.
Then I have to translate German into Dutch into English. I can do this but not when temperatures are around the 30C.
Also I am lucky to have a day job that I need to give attention for about most of the day ;-) So time is on diet.

 

What about the Aida lanterns? Since they were made side-by-side with Petromax lanterns they should have scratch dates, too. Now, having said that, what about the Aidas marked with MD-41? I have a few of the 1250s NOS and none have scratch marks. Was the MD-41 stamped at the factory as part of some kind of special order or were they stamped by the Dutch civil defence people? At any rate, no scratched dates appear on any I have. FYI: I also have a 1250 that was very limited, the kind with "legs" that fit in the tank. This one does not have scratched dates either.

 

As far as I know was the MD41 marking done in a factory.
I have never seen one with a scratched date code.

 

Thanks, Wim
That confirms I haven't lost my mind, yet!