Pork pie tilley

Morning people, I recently picked up a pork pie 1st with long handle, poss 2nd depending on your viewpoint and although I was going to move it on, I love its charm, it's super original as far as i can tell and i love the weight and feel of it. Durosil deep dish also present. Trouble is... and at the risk of upsetting all you tilley lovers out there, I can NEVER get a tilley working as easily as a vapalux or bialaddin, hence the large amount of the latter on my shelf. Anyway, can I get a diagnosis on the terrible burn please? Mantle is old, apols, but fits well, there is a little fuel leak at the cock spindle, all other washers are replaced. Pressure is good. Any thoughts and advice welcome thanks!

 

Hi Nicky, did you make sure the air tubes in the burner were all perfectly clear of any spider webs, hornet nests extra?

 

All pretty clear, what possible causes for such a burn please?

 

You are intimating a lack of air?

 

Try a different vaporiser that you know works ?

 

If the air tubes are clear then the advice in the lat post is a good one

 

Vapouriser needle at least is super clean, can you let me know exactly why it would burn like this please as I like to try to understand the science thanks

 

Not enough fuel and air or not enough air.

 

Hi @nicky boy
Nice old Tilley there..

all good advice .. a likely cause is the vapouriser.. the jet hole is most likely oversized.. i.e. it lets too much fuel through ?
They were designed as a throwaway item
Folks have ‘peined’ the end with varying degrees of success
There may be other and additional reasons such as spiders webs + nests in the burner, seals leaking..

 

Well here goes: Pressure in the tank forces paraffin up the vapouriser. If the vapouriser is hot the paraffin turns into gas as it travels up. The flow of the gas is controlled by the size of the small hole in the end of the vapouriser. To "start" the vapouriser we pre-heat it so it is hot enough to turn the paraffin into gas. Once it is running the mantle generates enough heat to keep it hot enough to turn the paraffin into gas.

The gas then goes into the burner - which is a mixing chamber where air is sucked in from the three air tubes, the gas mixes with the correct amount of air as it gets pushed up the middle and down the outer inside part of the burner, ending up coming through the rows of holes at the bottom of the burner. That gas then is pushed onto the mantle, where it is burnt, making the mantle glow brightly or incandece. The correct mix of gassified paraffin to air is important, and the correct volume of gas is also important.

So anything that prevents the correct quantity and mixture of fuel and air will give you undesirable outcomes. No or low pre-heat give you no gas at all. So it is just a process of making sure everything you can fix is fixed as you go along. Some things give you clues, carbon build up is normally too much fuel or not enough air. You might have more than one problem. Massive flaring of orange normally means paraffin is not being turned into gas. Light orange flames outside the mantle means too much paraffin gas is getting to the mantle (i.e the hole is too big)

So for your issue above it looks like there is a) not enough fuel/air and b) too much fuel in the mixture. This is why the advice given so far as been about making sure airways are unobstructed. The vapourisers are a "consumable" It may be that yours is chocked up with carbon. You might be able to clean it out a little. There is much advice on this on this site.
Another issue may be that the cock spindle seal is letting air in and messing up the flow of Paraffin.

Tilleys and vapaluxes are broadly equivalent I think that the MOD orders kept Vapalux afloat for a while, allowing them to not have to "cheapen off" for longer. But any well-fettled example of either will work well. A matter of personal preference really. The integral pre-heater goes a long way to making them a favourite for many.

 

These links may be be helpful.

Tilley R1 vaporisers... Where can I get a couple?

Bialaddin 310 vapour tube

 

Replacing the seal in the gland nut on the control cock is also advised, as if it is not properly sealed, it will interfere with the air-fuel mix inside the vapouriser and result in poor light output, and potential carbonisation of the vapouriser.

This matter was discussed (by me) in this recent thread. In it, I said:

“One of the commonly overlooked causes of black spot/poor burning mantle, is air being sucked into the vapouriser through the gland nut (packing box).

My suggestion is to remove the black bakelite knob; take off the gland nut; throroughtly remove the remnants of the the old washer(s) inside the gland nut and replace with two of the Fettlebox O-rings made for that purpose.

A veteran of kerosene lighting here in Australia, who has fettled more Tilley lamps than I could count, told me that he began using two O-rings in the Tilley gland nut in the late 1980s/early 1990s to overcome problems of poor performance from the vapourisers being sold by Tilley at that time. Using two O-rings also has the advantage that the gland nut can be tightened to a proper seal without force.

I would also check that the vapouriser is comfortably sealed to the control cock (not overtightened).”


I love these old pork pie X246s so I hope you can get yours going well.


Cheers

Tony

 

Take all the fuel out , pump up , immerse in bucket of water ... just over control valve .. air leaks / bubbles will be evident .. see any ? .. you have a leak .. investigate .. no leaks ..then it is a replacement vapouriser .. be aware there are two types , 606 or longer 169 .. plenty up for sale secondhand ... you can never see if they are any good until you try one .. way to go buddy

 

Given the size of the halo of unburned fuel around the mantle, its a fair bet that the jet orifice has become enlarged over time, thus allowing way too much kero vapour through. If this is the original vaporiser, it must have seen a lot if use over the years.

Nice lantern by the way!

 

@Tony Press that's the last washer(s) I need to look at and I will be straight with you, there is a leak there!!!!

 

@Alby I getcha, just sold a few cos I dont collect tilleys!!!!!!!!! Its a handsome lamp though so I may be tempted. Looks sd o good sitting next to my vapalux 300 with its blue grey hood. The orange on the pork pie is just right.

 

Fair point @ColinG I was impressed with the condition of the needle but nothing to say the tube isnt knackered......

 

@Fireexit1, general principles of vapourised fuel understood since a ways back but diagnosis of specific problems due to visual clues has been helpful. I must have had ten tilleys in and out of my garage door and I've never once had one burn properly, that's why they left..... Vapalux and bialaddin have been a different story however. I must have had twenty plus of them through my door and after a seals change and needle clean I cant remember one that hasn't fired up properly, therefore many of them still reside with me. My biggest prob with these has been the odd stress crack at the bottom of the tank. Likewise, the crud covered Optimus 300 from a boot fair for less than a fiver last year. New needle, mantle, glass and filler cap and it is, with my Vapalux 300, my most reliable lamp. Fired up like a dream, no messing about. Sadly, I dont think Tilleys like me.... unfortunately the feeling is mutual but this pork pie will stay for the aforementioned reasons. It was virtually free anyway. I must post the Optimus in the ref gallery, the fettle involved a non original filler cap but it's as close as and got it working.

 

@Tony Press can you give me a pointer on getting the knob off the spindle please, as only ever done later Tilleys thanks.

 

@nicky boy

A good link is in here:

Cheers

Tony

 

I thought the fuel (particularly in its liquid state) is at a pressure above atmospheric level in a Tilley type lantern, the pressure being provided by the pumped fount. That is why the gland will sometimes drip fuel.

If the gland is to draw air in, what creates the partial vacuum?

I can see that if air is, contrary to my thoughts, drawn in at the gland, it will change the air fuel mix. But surely it would be a very modest weakening having regard to the much greater volume drawn in by the air tubes.

 

@Ian Bingham fair point fella, did think that given the grand scheme, the science would appear to be less sensitive to such interference from a leaky cock, ahem...

 

@Ian Bingham

It will depend on the nature of the problem at the gland nut/spindle interface.

My reference to my previous note was not meant to indicate that I thought the problem that Nicky had was “sucking air in”; rather, it was to point to an often overlooked problem: failure to service the gland nut.

Leaking oil under pressure is one problem. The partial vacuum created by the pressure of rapidly moving hot gas inside the vapouriser is another, but different.

Cheers

Tony

 

OK. I think that the reduction in pressure occurs only after the jet, that is in the burner where the air is drawn in to create a combustible mixture.

 

Replaced washer in control cock, got this result...

 

@Ian Bingham @Fireexit1 @Tony Press
Then tried another vapouriser with the novel addition of a wire tied wick !?!?! And got this result. Worse than before. Using new paraffin extra btw.
You'll hate me for saying this but Tilleys just seem so temperamental!!!!!

 

I’m repeating what’s already been said, but the jet orifices in both vapourisers are oversized, so over-fuelling.

 

@presscall Great. Definitive but previously bound up with leaking cock spindle, air mix etc. Nothing to lose by having a go at this peining biz then.

 

Wow it does sound like Tilley lamps just don't like you, keep persisting they are so easy to fettle especially if you have spare parts lying around to swap and change, (that might make it harder for you, if you dont have any spare parts) so you can eliminate the problem.
You also have got some really great advice, good luck mate.
I did have this same problem once and swapped vaporisers to no avail, and after trying everything I could think of in the end I decided to change the burner over and guess what?
It was the first and only time for me that the burner was buggered.

 

@Buggerlugs, I've sold all spares as I decided q a while back that i wouldn't collect tilley, my first chance lamp purchase was a vapalux 300 after my primary interest of primus stoves, specifically 96's. The fettle was so easy and the result so brilliant that Willis and Bates became my go to guys for pressure lamps. Alas I will never be convinced by tilley and have moved on any lamps or parts, some NOS that I've ever had. I'm regretting it a little bit now as I like this pork pie but its time will come. Turns out I had a correct old clip on meths cup aswell, that went with a funnel and jar etc.... I have another v 300 arriving soon. I am willing to bet that after a brief service, it will shine again!!!!! And the pork pie will be watching from the shelf.... but its all good fun.